I need some help in correcting mistakes

English translation: Suggested rewrite

23:37 Apr 12, 2012

English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Linguistics

English term or phrase: I need some help in correcting mistakes

In the following sentence one (or more?) mistake must be corrected to make it right. (It can even be a missing word.) Could anyone help me? Many thanks.
"Hungarian universities which have language exam exit requirements except the Euroexam."

bakopeter KudoZ activity Questions: 1 (none open) Answers: 0
Local time: 11:57

Selected answer:Suggested rewrite

Explanation:
Hungarian universities that have a language examination as part of their graduation requirements accept the Euroexam.

It seems as though "exit exam" is US English, but generally refers to graduation (exit) from high school. According to Kim's reference information, the text in question seems to be referring to a requirement for graduating from university, rather than for university admission. For that reason, and also because "exit exam" is meaningless in UK English, I propose avoiding the term.

"That" should be used rather than "which", because not all Hungarian universities have the requirement, but those that do accept the Euroexam. It, therefore, introduces a restrictive clause and does not require commas.

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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2012-04-14 15:55:01 GMT)
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I have just realised that there is a possibility of this being a non-restrictive clause and, therefore, using "which" and a comma before it.

Universities in countries XXX, YYY and ZZZ do not have any specific language requirements. Universities in countries AAA, BBB and CCC have language exam entrance requirements and only accept the ABC exam. Hungarian universities, which have language exam exit requirements, [i.e. all Hungarian universities and unlike the other countries previously mentioned] accept the Euroexam.

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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2012-04-14 15:58:24 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, as we now know, such detailed analysis was not actually required as this was a test and the setting organisation just planted two simple spelling mistakes to be spotted and managed to get the grammar (and their computer programming) wrong.

Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 11:57

Grading comment

It is not easy to decide which answer was most helpful, as the question was not clear enough. I am very grateful to all of you for your useful ideas. However, I have managed to learn from this answer how to use ethically and most efficiantly this forum. Thanks everyone!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED

4 +4

Suggested rewrite

B D Finch

3 +3

accept

LisaV20

4 +1

I do not claim I will render this sentence perfect, but

JH Trads

WITCH & EXCEPT

Ildiko Santana

having / accept

Arabic & More

Summary of reference entries provided

Background info

Kim Metzger

Discussion entries: 10

B D Finch

France

@ bakopeter

21:10 Apr 13, 2012

Sorry if my comment was a bit harsh. I assumed, when you provided the further informatiion, that you were a student who was misusing KudoZ to get the answer to a test question where the obvious mistakes "witch" and "except" were so simple that it was not even an advanced level test. Given what you say about only two errors and those corrections not working (the corrections should be to "which" (if the question is just poorly worded) or "that" and "accept"), there is something wrong with the programming. (I have found one or two similar programming errors on the French "Voltaire" program, where answering correctly produces a "mistake" response that shows the same answer that the program rejected as the correct one.)

You could bring this to the attention of Euroexam.

Kim Metzger

Mexico

Answer found elsewhere

20:11 Apr 13, 2012

- OK, if you actually did find an answer elsewhere and not without letting your would-be helpers know what you found.

Ildiko Santana

United States

don't feel bad...

18:59 Apr 13, 2012

Peter,
I personally don't see what rules might have been broken, and you certainly did not waste anybody's time - remember that spending time on providing answers is *optional*. :) If, however, the 2 obviously incorrect words in your quoted text ("witch" and "except") are not accepted by the teachers, I suggest you discuss the question with them. I believe all of us here have done the best we could to help you out and the contributions are quite enlightening. If none of these answers helped you find the solution, you can always close the question without grading, there is an option "Answer found elsewhere".

LisaV20

United States

18:05 Apr 13, 2012

It's ok - you're new. Now you know for next time.

For what it's worth, I knew it was a test when I read your question. I have taken tests like this before. But, yes, the extra detail would have been helpful.

bakopeter

ASKER

I am really sorry

17:57 Apr 13, 2012

I am really sorry for breaking rules and wasted others' valuable time. Being a new member here I have not managed to recognize the norms yet. I highly appreciate the work of professional translators here and their willingness to help all the time. This community has been a great help to me with my translations for a long time. I just wanted to help a pupil of mine with her exam preparation, but I simply got stuck at this sentence and so did other teachers. Now I am desperately trying to find some solution and this brought me here.
This sentence contains deliberate mistakes to check if you can correct them and only two changes can be done. Changing "witch" and "except" seems obvious, but it is not accepted.
Again, I apologize for making trouble.

NancyLynn

Canada

Moderator note:

11:57 Apr 13, 2012

Please note that questions for tests must indicated as such when posting KudoZ questions.

bakopeter

ASKER

Only two corrections allowed

11:55 Apr 13, 2012

Thanks everyone for your kind help, but the problem seems to be a bit more complicated. The original sentence: "Hungarian universities witch have language exam exit requirements except the Euroexam." It is from an online exam preparation exercise on the website of Euroexam and only two corrections are allowed. I have tried plenty of possibilities but failed.
I apologize for violating the rules. I will be more careful in the future.

Sheila Wilson

Spain

Suggestion

06:37 Apr 13, 2012

Try exit=entry and except=accept

Arabic & More

Jordan

@ Kim Metzger

04:13 Apr 13, 2012

The term "language exit examinations" is a common one and appears on the websites of numerous universities:

http://www.aug.edu/testing_and_disability_services/testing/F...

Lara Barnett

United Kingdom

@ Asker

23:59 Apr 12, 2012

Can you explain in more detail what you are trying to say please. Also, what is "exit requirements" exactly?

Answers

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

i need some help in correcting mistakes I do not claim I will render this sentence perfect, but

Explanation:
I believe the intended meaning is along the lines of:

'Hungarian universities which require language exit examinations accept the Euroexam'

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Note added at 1 hr (2012-04-13 00:45:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

hi bakopeter, another possible option for the idea of 'accept' here, if that idea is confirmed, would be 'recognize/recognise the...'

I hope this helps

JH Trads
United States
Local time: 05:57
Native speaker of:

Spanish,

French

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

i need some help in correcting mistakes accept

Explanation:
Maybe they mean "Hungarian universities which have language exam exit requirements accept the Euroexam."

Just a guess.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2012-04-13 11:18:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Glad I could be of help. Good luck on the rest of your exam!

LisaV20
United States
Local time: 11:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English

Notes to answerer

Asker: Thanks for your kind help, this version seems to be perfect, as only two mistakes can only be corrected in it (either a word is missing or it needs to be rewritten) and I have also tried it together with a lot of other different possibilities, but none of them have been accepted. It is going to drive me up the wall:) The original sentence: "Hungarian universities witch have language exam exit requirements except the Euroexam." http://elearning.euroexam.org/mod/scorm/player.php?a=1523&scoid=464800 (registration required) It is from an online Euroexam intermediate exam preparation exercise and its aim is to check whether you can write down grammar words when the speaker hardly pronounces them and content words when they sound very similar to other words.

16 hrs confidence:

i need some help in correcting mistakes WITCH & EXCEPT

Explanation:
Now that you've provided some more explanation, I believe these two words need to be replaced: "witch" > WHICH and "except" > ACCEPT.
Witch: "one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially a woman practicing usually black witchcraft" (would not make sense here)
*Which*: being what one or ones out of a group —used as an interrogative (e.g. "kept a record of which employees took their vacations in July");
Except: "with the exclusion or exception of" (would not make sense here)
*Accept*: "to recognize, to give admittance or approval to, to regard as proper" (e.g. "only written applications are accepted")

Euroexam provides services in language studies and the successful passing of their language test will be considered acceptable by most Hungarian universities where a pass grade in a language exam is an exit requirement. See their homepage, and a few related references from this field.

Euroexam FAQ:
http://www.euroexam.org/gyakori-kerdesek
"Elismert nyelvvizsga
Államilag elismert a vizsga?
Igen. Felvételihez, diplomához, karrierhez ma már nélkülözhetetlen az államilag *elismert* nyelvvizsga. Az Euroexam nyelvvizsgákat teljes értékű angol ill. német nyelvvizsgaként használhatod a felvételinél (a mindenkori pontértékeknek megfelelően), a diplomához, és természetesen *elfogadják* álláskeresésnél is.
Ez azt jelenti, hogy az Euro és EuroPro a felvételitől a diplomán át a nyelvpótlékig mindenütt *érvényes*, államilag *elismert* nyelvvizsgáknak számítanak."

CEF homepage:
http://www.examenglish.com/CEFR/cefr.php
"The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEF or CEFR) was put together by the Council of Europe as a way of standardising the levels of language exams in different regions. It is very widely used internationally and all important exams are mapped to the CEFR."

French language school, glossary:
http://www.frenchfaster.com/glossary.htm
ENTRY REQUIREMENT: Your second language (B1 level)
*EXIT REQUIREMENT*: Your third language (A2 level)

INSEAD - "The Business School for the World"
Language Policy:
http://mba.insead.edu/admissions/documents/language_policy.p...
"The *exit requirement* may be certified in one of the following ways:
• by taking a written test with FL&C or RELC during the first week of the programme (referred to as orientation week), or
• by using the same means available for validating the entry requirement as detailed in Section 3.3 before or during the programme. ...
Language test during Orientation Week (the first week of the programme)
To validate the *exit requirement*, written tests** are held during the first week of the programme. Please refer to Annex 2 for the list of language tests available. Registration for the test takes place on Entry Day and test fees are listed in Annex 1.
** In some rare instances, the *exit requirement test* may be based on an oral interview and a reading-comprehension test only. As there are no written elements to evaluate, a practical level is the minimum required score to validate the *exit requirement*. Please be aware that for some languages, the test may be conducted by telephone."
- - -

I find it rather surprising that the term "exit requirement" had so many colleagues puzzled... I thought it was fairly straightforward and common in English. Here is another example, hopefully it will shed some light on the term for those still in doubt:

"Academic Policies Listing | Catalog Table of Contents | Index
USF 1997-98 Undergraduate Catalog - Pages 46 - 48

*EXIT REQUIREMENTS*

(Part of the Liberal Arts Requirements)
(9 Semester Hours)

Major Works and Major Issues: A portion of the *exit requirements* consists of a minimum of six (6) semester hours of approved coursework concerning major works and major issues. Courses will focus on major issues, documents, or works, and will allow students to read primary texts. These courses may allow students to delve into topics on an interdisciplinary basis. Students will be encouraged to write enough to fulfill Gordon Rule requirements. At least one of the Major Works and Major Issues courses will be taken outside the student's major discipline(s) and may, with the consent of the instructor, be taken for S/U credit.
...
Literature and Writing: In addition, students will take three (3) semester hours of approved *exit requirement* coursework in literature and writing. These courses will allow students to read significant literature of the world and write at least 6,000 words. Significance of the literature will be determined by the department offering the course. The 6,000-word requirement meets Gordon Rule requirements and is for students who may wish to satisfy some of this requirement with upper-level courses. The writing requirement may be satisfied with assignments that include, for instance, revision and rewriting, and process writing. This requirement may be satisfied through comparitive literature courses. These literature courses need not be limited to the English Department. The course may be taken within the major if appropriate.
...
All students must achieve an overall average of "C" (2.0GPA) in the lower level requirements and a grade of "C" or better in each of the *exit requirement* courses. Students will take at least one of the Major Works and Major Issues courses outside their discipline(s). This course may be taken for S/U credit, with the consent of the instructor. Only courses numbered 3000 or above may be used to satisfy the *exit requirements*. *Exit requirements* must be taken at USF.

Although post-secondary foreign language courses may not be required for all graduates, students are encouraged to become competent in at least one foreign language. Foreign language study enriches the command of English, enlarges cultural perspective, and enhances learning skills.

All courses listed are certified as meeting the *Exit requirement* as of April, 1997. Additional courses may have been certified since that date. Please consult with an academic advisor for current and additional information."

http://www.ugs.usf.edu/catalogs/9798/LAEXIT.HTM

Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 02:57
Native speaker of:

Hungarian,

English

1 day 3 hrs confidence:

i need some help in correcting mistakes having / accept

Explanation:
Ordinarily, I would change "which" to "that" and "except" to "accept," as follows (and as suggested by others):

Hungarian universities that have language exam exit requirements accept the Euroexam.

Since you said these answers are not working, however, perhaps you could try "having" as follows:

Hungarian universities having language exam exit requirements accept the Euroexam.

Arabic & More
Jordan
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 4

8 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +4

i need some help in correcting mistakes

Suggested rewrite

B D Finch
France
Local time: 11:57
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 40

Grading comment

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

Suzan Hamer: Particularly with the explanation of "that".

34 mins

-> Thanks Suzan

agree

Gary D: "Hungarian universities which have language exam exit requirements accept the Euroexam."

4 hrs

-> Thanks Gary. That turns out to be the likely "correct" answer to the test. However, it is incorrect English for the reasons given above.

agree

Kim Metzger: OK, so it could be a restrictive clause after all, but in US English "which" is a definite no-no. /See discussion of 'that' vs. 'which' below. In BE 'which' is used for restrictive clauses by the best writers.

4 hrs

-> Thanks Kim. Re whether it is a restrictive clause, I am about to add a note. I'd appreciate more info on the US use of "which", but know I should look it up myself!

agree

Jim Tucker (X)

1 day 5 hrs

-> Thanks Jim

Reference comments

3 hrs

Reference: Background info

Reference information:
As has been indicated above, Hungarian higher education is currently experiencing a massive academic reform. There is at least one area, however, where we cannot expect considerable changes. The approach of the new degree requirements towards foreign language learning and teaching will, very likely, remain almost the same. (It is important to note that this claim does not apply to Bachelor and Master programmes in languages.) On the one hand, it is and will remain determined at a national level that graduates cannot receive their degree without the successful completion of an accredited state foreign language examination.
userpage.fu-berlin.de/~enlu/downloads/Paper_Sardi.doc

http://euroexam.dream.hu/index.php?l=1

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Note added at 1 day16 hrs (2012-04-14 15:51:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

That or which
The distinction between the relative pronouns that and which to introduce restrictive relative clauses with non-human antecedents is a frequent point of dispute.
For clarity, we can look at a slightly modified version of the example above:
(1) The building company, which erects very fine houses, will make a large profit. (non-restrictive)
(2) The building company that/which erects very fine houses will make a large profit. (restrictive)
Of the two, only which is commonly used in non-restrictive clauses.[6] The dispute concerns restrictive clauses: in informal American speech and in formal and informal British English that or which are both commonly used in these clauses, but in formal American English, references generally specify only that,[7] or reduction to a zero relative pronoun (see below). This rule was championed in 1926 by H.W. Fowler, who observed, "Some there are who follow this principle now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice either of most or of the best writers."[8] Stanford linguist Arnold Zwicky[9] claims that it is generally considered "a really silly idea" among linguists. In the U.S., the Chicago Manual of Style, for instance, states it as a rule, and the rule is often—though not generally—observed in copy-edited prose in other publications.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_relative_clauses#That_o...

Kim Metzger
Mexico
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English
PRO pts in category: 187

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English translation: Suggested rewrite

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