some/any in complex negative sentences

English translation: It depends

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:some/any in complex negative sentences
Selected answer:It depends
Entered by: B D Finch

13:19 Mar 1, 2012
English language (monolingual) [Non-PRO]
Linguistics
English term or phrase: some/any in complex negative sentences
Should I use some or any in the sentences below:

(1) It is not true that he did any/some work on Sunday.
(2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do any/some work on Sunday.
(3) It is not true that he will do any/some work on Sunday, if you ask him.
(4) I do not think that he did any/some work on Sunday.
(5) I do not think that if you ask him, he will do any/some work on Sunday.
(6) I do not think that he will do any/some work on Sunday, if you ask him.

I would use 'any' for (3), (4) and (6), and 'some' for the rest. Am I right?
gilberto1
It depends
Explanation:
I think that it is impossible to say whether "any" or "some" is correct without discussing why the use of "It is not true that" is stilted and wrong in all your examples. The problem is that it is the statement that might be untrue, not the work. So the following variation would be fine:
1) It is not true to say that he did any work on Sunday.
It has to be "any" rather than "some", because not doing even a small amount of work has to mean not doing any work at all.
However, the next sentence while committing a similar error should use "some" rather than "any" as "some work on Sunday" (as opposed to a weekday amount of work), could conceivably be the outcome of a polite request.
The following is wrong:
2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do any work on Sunday.
It is wrong because "any" is actually being used in a positive clause, so it should be:
2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do some work on Sunday.

Compare the following grammatically correct sentences:
2a) You may think that if you ask him he will do some work on Sunday, but that is not true.
Because the prediction being refuted is spelled out "that is not true" clearly refers to the thought, not to the work.
2b) Even if you ask him, he will not do any work on Sunday.
"Any" is correctly used in a negative clause.

Note also that repeatedly starting sentences with "It is not true that" can have the effect of sounding peevish or childish.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-03-01 19:18:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I almost agree with Sheila's answer. The problem I have with her suggestions is, I think, the reason why she says that it pains her to leave the sentences in that state. Some of the sentences are refuting implied predictions about what somebody else will do in the future, without providing any background that would make the predictions real.

There is another problem with
"It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do any work on Sunday."
It is ambiguous. It could mean:
a) It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do absolutely any work you can think of on Sunday.
OR
b) It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do any work (even the tiniest amount of work) on Sunday.
Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 21:53
Grading comment
thanks
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +5It depends
B D Finch
4 +2any for all
Tony M
4some/any in complex negative sentences
Sheila Wilson


  

Answers


9 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
any for all


Explanation:
I think you would normally use 'any' in all of these sentences (though most of them are in any case highly stilted and unnatural)

However, in those cases where you would have used 'some', I can see that 'some' might work, with a possible slight change of meaning.

"I don't think he will be doing any work this Sunday"

I get the feeling that if you could re-word the sentence so that the negative goes back to 'him', then you MUST use 'any'

I don't think he will be doing any work this Sunday
>
I think he won't be doing any work this Sunday

Tony M
France
Local time: 21:53
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 156

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Alison Sparks (X): totally with your comments, Tony
4 mins
  -> Thanks, Alison! It's awkward, isn't it, when as a native-speaker one just knows what sounds right — but it's so hard to analyse and explain why!

agree  Paul Lambert: I agree that "any" fits all examples here. However, "some" may fit in positive sentences, while never in negative sentences. (I don't think so anyway; I too have a hard time explaining just why.)
10 mins
  -> Thanks, Paul! I think the nub of the issue is whether the specific bit of the sentence where the 'some/any' comes is itself negative or not... see what I mean?

neutral  B D Finch: Sorry, I have changed my mind! See my answer.// Thanks Tony.
5 hrs
  -> And quite right too! Your analysis is much more detailed, and as all of us have said, the sentences are so flawed in themselves, it's quite difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff.

neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: depends: any work (at all) versus some work (e.g. on a particular project). Maybe "work" was an unfortunate choice by gilberto here.
6 hrs
  -> Thanks, Cilian! Yes, I think the example sentences are so flawed, we're all rather wasting our time, I fear.
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
some/any in complex negative sentences


Explanation:
As a teacher, I'd change all of them except n° 4, and I'd change that in informal writing. However, if forced to accept them with only the choice between some and any, I'd go as follows:

(1) It is not true that he did some work on Sunday.
(2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do some work on Sunday.
(3) It is not true that he will do some work on Sunday, if you ask him.
(4) I do not think that he did any work on Sunday.
(5) I do not think that if you ask him, he will do any work on Sunday.
(6) I do not think that he will do any work on Sunday, if you ask him.


It pains me to leave them in that state, though!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2012-03-01 17:57:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To illustrate my point, here's an example of the changes I would make:

(2) It is not true that he will work on Sunday if asked.

That's English. The example given was convoluted and unnatural.

Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 20:53
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 31

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Cilian O'Tuama: I'm assuming Asker wants us to deal with the some/any issue, and not find a simple solution like rewriting everything :-)
2 hrs
  -> I actually addressed the some/any issue in all 6 sentences before rephrasing anything :-)
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
It depends


Explanation:
I think that it is impossible to say whether "any" or "some" is correct without discussing why the use of "It is not true that" is stilted and wrong in all your examples. The problem is that it is the statement that might be untrue, not the work. So the following variation would be fine:
1) It is not true to say that he did any work on Sunday.
It has to be "any" rather than "some", because not doing even a small amount of work has to mean not doing any work at all.
However, the next sentence while committing a similar error should use "some" rather than "any" as "some work on Sunday" (as opposed to a weekday amount of work), could conceivably be the outcome of a polite request.
The following is wrong:
2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do any work on Sunday.
It is wrong because "any" is actually being used in a positive clause, so it should be:
2) It is not true that if you ask him, he will do some work on Sunday.

Compare the following grammatically correct sentences:
2a) You may think that if you ask him he will do some work on Sunday, but that is not true.
Because the prediction being refuted is spelled out "that is not true" clearly refers to the thought, not to the work.
2b) Even if you ask him, he will not do any work on Sunday.
"Any" is correctly used in a negative clause.

Note also that repeatedly starting sentences with "It is not true that" can have the effect of sounding peevish or childish.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2012-03-01 19:18:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I almost agree with Sheila's answer. The problem I have with her suggestions is, I think, the reason why she says that it pains her to leave the sentences in that state. Some of the sentences are refuting implied predictions about what somebody else will do in the future, without providing any background that would make the predictions real.

There is another problem with
"It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do any work on Sunday."
It is ambiguous. It could mean:
a) It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do absolutely any work you can think of on Sunday.
OR
b) It is not true that, if you ask him, he will do any work (even the tiniest amount of work) on Sunday.

B D Finch
France
Local time: 21:53
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
thanks

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Brilliant analysis, Barbara!
22 mins
  -> Thanks Tony

agree  Cilian O'Tuama: I think arguments/circumstances could be found to justify both "any" and "some" in all of the examples.
40 mins
  -> Thanks Cilian. Yes, it's a question of how the statement is phrased. Also, some forms that might be OK spoken (because the meaning can be made clear by stressing certain words), do not work when written.

agree  Sheila Wilson: Thanks for the analysis :-) I wasn't able to say exactly what was wrong with the sentences but you've explained it clearly
2 hrs
  -> Thanks Sheila

agree  Phong Le
8 hrs
  -> Thanks Phong Le

agree  Paul Lambert
16 hrs
  -> Thanks Paul
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