frottement

English translation: dissonant harmonies

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:frottements dissonants
English translation:dissonant harmonies
Entered by: Sheila Wilson

13:50 Jan 31, 2012
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Music
French term or phrase: frottement
This is a passage in a research paper concerning the musical score in a film.
The whole sentence is:
"Les couches musicales superposées créent des sonorités tendues, avec parfois des frottements dissonants."

I've also heard the conductor in my choir talk about notes that "frottent", never tried to translate it until now!

Many thanks
Kate Davis
France
Local time: 15:52
dissonant harmonies
Explanation:
I think this would be the term to use here. As it's a research paper I would imagine you want "jargon" and a technical register rather than words like "clash" (which might be fine talking about music in a pub)

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Note added at 2 hrs (2012-01-31 15:56:46 GMT)
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Here's one ref: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar-harmonizing/
Selected response from:

Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 14:52
Grading comment
This sounds just right; thanks, Sheila! Not too jargony at all and given the number of answers proposed and the discussions it elicited, there clearly isn't one simple translation for frottement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +5clash
Rob Grayson
4 +3friction
David Vaughn
4 +1grating dissonance
Just Opera
4raggedness
kashew
4dissonant harmonies
Sheila Wilson
3discord
Mark Bossanyi
4 -2beating
cc in nyc


Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +5
frottement dissonant
clash


Explanation:
I would say that a "frottement dissonant" is a clash – literally, notes "rubbing against each other" in a dissonant way.

Rob Grayson
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:52
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Lara Barnett
9 mins

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
18 mins

agree  Hal D'Arpini: That sounds good. Notes are said to clash.
2 hrs

agree  Angela Dickson (X): absolutely. "Clashing" needn't be a bad thing, and has occurred for centuries - the clash creates tension, which the composer can then play with in interesting ways.
19 hrs
  -> Thanks Angela – exactement

agree  Isabelle Berquin
1 day 5 hrs
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22 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
friction


Explanation:
I rather like clash, but am afraid it is too strong. here's another possibility.

David Vaughn
Local time: 15:52
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 201

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  kashew: "When played at the same time, these two notes produce a highly dissonant friction and tension which demands resolution and produces [...]" kammerphilharmonie.com
2 hrs

agree  Laura Nagle (X)
3 hrs

agree  Jim Tucker (X)
7 hrs
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50 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
beating


Explanation:
Maybe, in this context?

Perception of dissonance is caused by near misses between frequency components of the two sounds, producing rapid but perceptible beating.
http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2008/spain/ssip/ss...

The [zummara] pipes were said to be out of tune with each other and produced a very dissonant beating sound.
http://www.playingsaxophone.info/2010/02
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clarinet/History


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Note added at 52 mins (2012-01-31 14:43:30 GMT)
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Oh... There's a Wiki that supports this usage:
In acoustics, a beat is an interference between two sounds of slightly different frequencies, perceived as periodic variations in volume whose rate is the difference between the two frequencies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics)

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Note added at 1 hr (2012-01-31 14:51:44 GMT)
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And here's the relevant French definition for frottement:
MUS. Dissonance produite par l'émission de deux sons distants d'une seconde majeure ou mineure. La prédilection pour les accords de septième et de neuvième, leurs enchaînements sans préparation ni résolution, perpétuant les frottements de notes à intervalles de seconde, faisant régner une harmonie constamment dissonante (Desaymard, Chabrier,1934, p. 39).
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/frottement

cc in nyc
Local time: 09:52
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  David Vaughn: Beats are a specific physical phenomena, and even if they are produced here, there is no reason to attribute the idea to the author. PS "beats" as used here has no relationship to the beats of a measure.
2 hrs
  -> Yes, a physical phenomenon. PS: Neither I nor my references allude to "beats of a measure."

neutral  Sheila Wilson: It wouldn't be "beating" here, though you could say that the various scores were to be played slightly "off the beat"// If the author knows his/her stuff then off-pitch = discordant (cf accord), though the two are often confused or used synonymously
2 hrs
  -> This is about pitch, not rhythm. ;-) // The author seems to know how to write about this stuff (at least IMO).

disagree  Angela Dickson (X): no, I think the author is talking about clashes between distinct pitches. Beating is a phenomenon that would occur if the performer were aiming to produce one particular pitch. This is not as technical as you think it is.
19 hrs
  -> Now that you mention it, yes, my Answer relates to mistuned strings, for instance.
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
discord


Explanation:
This would combine both "frottement" and "dissonant". Discords create the "beating" effect.

Mark Bossanyi
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
raggedness


Explanation:
Or, roughness

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Note added at 2 heures (2012-01-31 15:53:18 GMT)
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Harsh and disagreeable to the ear.

kashew
France
Local time: 15:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
dissonant harmonies


Explanation:
I think this would be the term to use here. As it's a research paper I would imagine you want "jargon" and a technical register rather than words like "clash" (which might be fine talking about music in a pub)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2012-01-31 15:56:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's one ref: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar-harmonizing/

Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 14:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
This sounds just right; thanks, Sheila! Not too jargony at all and given the number of answers proposed and the discussions it elicited, there clearly isn't one simple translation for frottement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: I'm no musician, but isn't that a contradiction in terms?
9 mins
  -> It sounds like it, but certainly jazz musicians see a great difference between concordant harmonies and discordant and/or dissonant ones. Thee latter just sound wrong to Joe Public. :-)

disagree  David Vaughn: Dissonant harmony is no contradiction in musical terms. But the last thing you want to do is stick in jargon just because is would sound more "researchy" - to use the technical term. The author talks of separate layers - an idea independent from harmony.
52 mins
  -> Far be it from me to "jargonise" wantonly but this is a research paper. When my husband plays jazz guitar I talk of "clash" but he talks in other terms as he's a musician. It's just horses for courses. BTW, the layers refer to multi-score harmonies

agree  cc in nyc: sounds OK to me
2 hrs
  -> Thanks

neutral  Angela Dickson (X): I don't see anything wrong with using "clash" in a research paper - the author isn't making any great lofty musicological claims. I'd be careful about talking explicitly about harmonies here, as the author only mentions sonorities, which is vaguer.
17 hrs
  -> I don't disagree with any of your comments, Angela, but isn't there other terminiology in French to talk about "clash" rather than using "frottements dissonants"? Also, harmonies are not always involved, I agree, but "couches..." implies they are here.
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
grating dissonance


Explanation:
IMO the idea here is that the sound "grates" on the ear (from the meaning to rub).

In a musical sense "frottment" means notes are played at close intervals or even overlap and from time to time sound unpleasant on the ear.



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Note added at 3 hrs (2012-01-31 17:47:16 GMT)
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e.g. violin screech in 'Psycho'

Just Opera
Belgium
Local time: 15:52
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Catherine Gilsenan
23 hrs
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