горшки (as a medical remedy)

English translation: gor(o)shki + footnote

13:55 May 31, 2011

Russian to English translations [PRO]
Medical - History / 16th century remedies

Russian term or phrase: горшки (as a medical remedy)

The action takes place in 1533, as related by N. Karamzin in 1813. It is the fatal illness of Grand Prince of Muscovy Vasily III. He has a festering sore on his leg.

"Лекарства употреблялись русские: мука с медом, печеный лук, масть, ***горшки*** и семенники".

I haven't find any alternative to "pots" for горшки. I've read the entries for "горшок" in Dahl and the RAS dictionary of 11th-17th century Russian usage. The only reference that giving me a clue to what it means here, so far, is in Dahl, who has this expression: "Горшок на живот, все заживет", which made me wonder if a heated pot, or a pot of something hot, were being used like a hot-water bottle. At the same time, I wondered if it could be an alternate spelling for something botanical; thinking of "горчица."

Any documented confirmation or alternatives would be appreciated.

Rachel Douglas KudoZ activity Questions: 73 (none open) (8 closed without grading) Answers: 1630 United States
Local time: 16:38

English translation:gor(o)shki + footnote

Explanation:
As in "a digestion remedy the chronicle calls gor(o)shki"

The chronicle doesn't make it clear what exactly the remedy is, as follows from the comment to the Russian edition, which itself is a translation from the Old Russian.

The page is dynamic so you'll need to go to note [32] manually.

[32] ...горшки тридневныя и сѣмянники... — Детали процедуры, по-видимому, облегчившей князю пищеварение и дыхание, и ее инструментарий не вполне ясны (в одной из летописей — Софийской второй — сохранилось другое обозначение использованного средства: «горошки» (?)).
— http://www.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=5141#_edn32

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2011-05-31 16:36:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"nobody knows what the heck they were" pretty much nails it.

I'm afraid that "digestion remedy" and "breath remedy" is the best we can have and here is why.

In [1], they summarize the available reconstructions of Vasily III's disease and death (based on the chronicle), citing, among others, an earlier reconstruction of 1811 [1a], which is close in timing to Karamzin's 1813's opus magnum and even goes into detail on the ointment given the Grand Prince but says nothing about gorshki and semyanniki merely reciting them.

On a related note, Nicolaus of Luebeck was aka Nicholas Lyubchanin [2] even wrote a book on medicine [3] and it has been translated and published recently, which is good and interesting in and of itself, but hardly helpful. :)

The passage in the chronicle containing gorshki and semyanniki says that they were used as a relief procedure to ease the suffering rather than a medicine. So, they are hardly some folk medicines, which, to the point, the doctors (unsuccessfully) tried before.

[1] http://new-guid.livejournal.com/3107.html
[1a] Джунковский В. Всеобщий журнал врачебной науки. СПб., 1811
[2] http://persona.rin.ru/eng/view/f/0/26277/nicholas-lyubchanin
[3] http://goo.gl/rrQUb

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2011-05-31 17:03:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"three-day горошки" may also imply, e.g. that they matured for 3 days or are 3 days old if they were seeds of e.g. peas. Hypothetically, the latter would relate "горошки" as seeds to "семенняки" if this is any help.

I can only wonder how they translated those into French/German.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2011-05-31 19:47:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Solovyev [1] says it was a laxative [2], where the chronicle says it was "горшки трехдневные и семянники" [3]. Laxative would match with the chronicle's tactful "от этого все опустилось вниз".

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Solovyov

[2] В Волоке великий князь велел прикладывать мазь; стало выходить много гною, боль увеличилась, в груди начала чувствоваться тягость; лекаря дали ему чистительное, но это средство не помогло, аппетит пропал.
— http://militera.lib.ru/common/solovyev1/05_08.html

[3] И велел князь великий прикладывать мазь к болячке, и начал из болячки идти гной, сначала немного, а потом больше: до полутаза и по целому тазу. И был князь в великой скорби и болезни тяжелой, тогда же и грудь ему сильно сдавило. И для облегчения использовали горшки трехдневные и семянники, и от этого все опустилось вниз, а болезнь его была тяжкой. И с этого момента не принимал великий князь пищу, перестал он есть.
— http://www.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=5141

Selected response from:

rns

Grading comment

Thanks immensely, rns, for all the investigating you did! Not only on гор(о)шки, but also confirming Nicolaus Buelow (of Luebeck). By the way, I've had Solovyov's account of the same events open in front of me while translating, but I have to translate Karamzin, and not what Solovyov or the chronicles themselves say. I decided to follow in the footsteps of the 1825 German translator, who wrote something like Arduterstoffen, meaning "medicinal herbs," for this and the next term. Result: "... and other herbal remedies" - an expression well-attested in English texts of Karamzin's time.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +3

cupping

Deborah Hoffman

3 +1

gor(o)shki + footnote

rns

Answers

2 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

cupping

Explanation:
A

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 mins (2011-05-31 14:01:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

More often called banki, at least among immigrants here.

Перед началом установки горшка на живот выполняют подготовительные мероприятия.
http://www.medbanki.ru/blogs/method_vacuum_therap/viewpost/1...

Deborah Hoffman
Local time: 16:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

Notes to answerer

Asker: Wow, like the suction cups used in Chinese medicine! But, is this technique documented for early 16th century Russia, I wonder? (Haven't looked yet.)

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

gor(o)shki + footnote

rns
Native speaker of:

Russian
PRO pts in category: 16

Grading comment

Notes to answerer

Asker: Ooooh! Thanks very much for that reference! As for the cures, I guess it's a worst case for translating Karamzin's account: nobody knows what the heck they were. But I also greatly appreciate Note [29], which confirms what I had puzzled out about "Николай Люев", one of Vasily's doctors: that he was really Nicolaus Buelow, aka Nicolaus of Luebeck, a protege of Metropolitan Gennadius of Novgorod (d. 1504), and a participant in debates of the Third Rome (with Filofey of Pskov) and of astrology (with Maxim the Greek). The French translators of Karamzin threw their hands up and wrote "Luef," and I hadn't yet got my hands on a German translation of the relevant volume. Curious that the annotated Russian edition I checked, done by a Karamzin expert from the RAS in the 1980s, didn't footnote this error.

Asker: The idea that it might be "горошки" is also important. The RAS Dictionary of 11th-17th Century Russian gives the second meaning of "горошек" as: Мн. Шарики из лекарства, пилюли - 'Для того в мастике делаем горошки', citing "Травник Любч.", and then noting both "XVII cent." and "1534"... Will have to check those abbreviations, but if "Любч." stands for Luebeckian, being where Vasily's doctor came from, it would all fit together, although not bearing out K's assertion that Russian traditional means are what was used.

Asker: On the other hand, the chronicle's calling them "three-day" points in the direction of some application of pots, doesn't it? I don't think they had time-release capsules back then.

Asker: The French translator (1820 edition) threw his hands up after the onions, omitting the rest of the sentence. I don't know about the German and Italian, since I haven't found those online; the Library of Congress has at least some volumes of the German, but not the Italian. Depending on how many questions I accumulate, I might go take a look. On the other hand, our guess might be better than theirs.

Asker: Note: Indeed, the source cited in the RAS "Словарь русского языка XI-XVII вв." (see above, about the пилюли) is the book of, or translated by, Nicolaus Buelow (of Luebeck): Травник Любч. – Сия книга глаголемая Травник, изложена бысть врачевания ради людьскаго от мудрых риторей врачев / Пер. с нем. яз. Немчина Николая Любчанина, 1534 г. – Рук. ГИМ, Увар. № 387.

Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

Return to KudoZ list

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.

See also:

ProZ.com term search

Search millions of term translations

горшки (as a medical remedy)

English translation: gor(o)shki + footnote

Answers

KudoZ™ translation help

Your current localization setting

Select a language

горшки (as a medical remedy)

English translation: gor(o)shki + footnote

Answers

KudoZ™ translation help

You have native languages that can be verified

Your current localization setting

Select a language