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O Proz já está me pedindo pra fechar a questão. Gostaria de agradecer a todas as participantes desta discussão; algumas delas nem estão concorrendo a pontos. De todo modo, não vou dar pontos a ninguém porque quando for explicar o significado a meus alunos vou usar um pouquinho do que cada pessoa sugeriu, principalmente nesta discussão. E, por ser um termo de natureza tão melindrosa, e já que, na canção, tem um significado muito específico, não vou tampouco adicioná-lo ao glossário para que ninguém possa utilizá-lo indevidamente no futuro. Obrigada!!!!
Exactly. Brazilians don't associate manha with manipulation or deceit, especially in this context (a famous song), they associate it more with an endearing, harmless behaviour related to affection. To rely on the dictionary too much and translate it as sly/cunning/deceitful/catty would transform the meaning of the song into something else. That is not what it means to us, Brazilians.
I doubt the word "manha" is used in Dallas, Texas.
14:30 Jul 8, 2010
But in Brazil, "manha" in this context has no deceit. Both are completely aware of what is going on, there is no intention to deceive. The "victim" of manha knows this, accepts this and generally finds it endearing (like the song shows). It's a typical Brazilian concept, but "catty" does not fit.
Nossa, o papo tá rendendo, hein? Se não conseguimos encontrar uma palavra em inglês, pelo menos esta discussão tem sido muito interessante. A observação feita por Paula, posteriormente elaborada também por Amy e Marlene, chama a atenção para o fato de que, no contexto da canção "Gatinha Manhosa", trata-se de um comportamento que visa manipular emocionalmente alguém de quem se gosta a fim de ganhar sua atenção e "favores", porém sem intenções malévolas, levado por imaturidade e/ou insegurança.
Except that with manha in this context the other person is aware of what's going on: "I'm aware I'm being manipulated but I don't care, it's lighthearted and it's out of affection". Relying on a dictionary to interpret Brazilian Portuguese is dangerous, since gatinha manhosa certainly isn't a cunning little cat. Carmen's suggestions seem to indicate she's under the impression that this is about a cat "clever kitty". I can think of other two curious uses for "manha" (not manhoso) that have been common in São Paulo (slang) for a while now. One is skills: "ele tem as manhas de tocar piano" and the other is something like courage "você tem as manhas de falar com seu chefe?" ;)
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
14:39 Jul 7, 2010
I'm thinking maybe "play games" - I think I've actually heard that said before, for example, "You don't have to play games to get my love and attention."
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
14:17 Jul 7, 2010
Hi Marlene, I agree that "evil" is too strong a word...it's a kind of unconscious manipulation based on insecurity and immaturity...and I think it's typically American, too! :o)
it's a very hard term to translate since it expresses a typical Brazilian reaction or behaviour where (you are right) affection is involved. Manipulation sounds kind of evil since the manhoso's intention is not really to manipulate his or her partner for personal gain but to involve him/her in a web of emotions. And "sly" and "cunning" are out of bounds.
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
13:32 Jul 7, 2010
In other words, Carmen, manhoso may mean a lot of things, but in this song it means ONE thing.
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
13:31 Jul 7, 2010
The only way to get this anywhere near right is to look at the entire lyric (which I did). The girl is in love with the guy, she's insecure, so she uses emotional manipulation to get him to show her more love. To find one word in English to express this is tricky...I haven't been able to think of one.
Like Amy said, I don't think it can be described in a few words. As a native Brazilian, I can say none of those words fit. Obviously, the dictionary shows words that come closest. Manha or manhoso is normally used when there's some kind of affection involved, and the victim of "manha" (unlike manipulation) is always aware of it. I'm not saying that manha is never used in the sense of tricky and cunning, it can be, but in general it has something to do with affection.
I think you are categorically writing words off without even checking the meanings.Please refer to the meanings from the dictionary, which include sly and cunning and others. The thing is that 'manhoso' can mean a lot of things, including the idea of "clever" (astuto) and "fussy" (melindroso). 'Clever' and 'astuto' are not negative and 'sly' is not necessarily negative (it depends on what the text actually says), as 'sly' is more of a feline quality.
Generally, we'd say manha has something to do with manipulation or kids being whiny. But manha is general is not proper manipulation, there is no plan or thought behind it, it's generally involuntary. I can't find a word in English, you can only be "manhosa" with people you love.
Actually "catty" is more like manipulative, calculating and deceitful, which are stronger meanings than the word we need here as I said earlier I just brought it up bec cats are perceived as having certain qualities relating to astuteness or cleverness. Maybe "Clever Kitty" could work.
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
17:58 Jul 4, 2010
Carmen, the word "catty" means "gossipy" -- so I don't think it would fit in this context. Really, this is about veiled manipulation to get one's own way. I just can't think of a shorter way of saying it in English...maybe something will come to me later.
Interestingly there is a word in English "catty" that is used to convey this idea (more strongly) but it it more negative than 'astute',' cunnning' or 'sly' , thus perhaps a more neutral word such as "cunning" (or the like) would work better,
Amy Duncan (X)
Brazil
16:47 Jul 4, 2010
Dei uma olhada na letra, e o sentido é de manipular, fingir para conseguir o que ela quer. Em inglês a gente fala "she's a manipulator" -- pode ser que tenha outro termo, mas no momento me deu um branco!
Desculpe, realmente não dei o contexto. É que estou dando aulas de português a uma turma de universitários americanos iniciantes. Quero dar a música "Gatinha Manhosa". Eles, com certeza, vão me perguntar o que significa "manhosa".... "Fazer manha", que também tem na letra da música, acho que poderia ser traduzido como "to put on an act", conforme encontrei no Kudoz. O que vc acha? obrigada!
peer agreement (net): +2
