baronnie moyenâgeuse

English translation: separate fiefdoms

10:30 Jun 21, 2009
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - History
French term or phrase: baronnie moyenâgeuse
Hi

The term is being used figuratively to describe a cultural project whose different components are progressing well but each independently of the other. The author of the text says there is a risk that they will form "un système de baronnie moyenâgeuse." He then goes on to explain the risks associated with this (absence of a coherent whole, loss of synergy, lack of clarity).

I don't think a literal translation works at all here although I'm willing to be "convaincue du contraire"! Otherwise, can anyone think of another metaphor?

Many thanks!
Sandra Petch
Local time: 12:47
English translation:separate fiefdoms
Explanation:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fiefdoms
1. The estate or domain of a feudal lord.
2. Something over which one dominant person or group exercises control

Could be the right register
Selected response from:

polyglot45
Grading comment
"Fiefdoms" is perfect. It keeps the medieval reference and exactly corresponds to this idea of self-contained entities. Thanks a million Polyglot, I don't think I would ever have thought of this myself!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +10separate fiefdoms
polyglot45
4 +1infighting
Bourth (X)
4a Middle Ages' style system of baronies
Barbara Cochran, MFA
3lead to authority (leadership) being divided (split up) in an archaic fashion
Peter LEGUIE
2Balkanisation
Irene McClure
Summary of reference entries provided
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronnies_(Provence)
polyglot45
theories of power
Helen Shiner

  

Answers


45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
Balkanisation


Explanation:
A term which is obviously more often used in political contexts but can be used to describe other forms of disintegration or division - some of the entries below use it in relation to project management. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

http://www.europelostandfound.net/balkanisation

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordD...

It does however imply not only an element of non-cohesion but also of competition and conflict between the seperate units, so not sure if this will fit in your context?

Irene McClure
Local time: 12:47
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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47 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +10
separate fiefdoms


Explanation:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fiefdoms
1. The estate or domain of a feudal lord.
2. Something over which one dominant person or group exercises control

Could be the right register

polyglot45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 12
Grading comment
"Fiefdoms" is perfect. It keeps the medieval reference and exactly corresponds to this idea of self-contained entities. Thanks a million Polyglot, I don't think I would ever have thought of this myself!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  emiledgar: This is the term most often used for this situation; it's perfect and no one need look any further (in my opinion).
7 mins
  -> Thanks - you've made my day

agree  Helen Shiner: See my ref. notes. Perhaps disparate fiefdoms, rather than just separate. ie something to suggest it is a problem would be good.
36 mins
  -> you could even say "isolated fiefdoms" or "autonomous fiefdoms" but I'm not too happy with "disparate" - it suggests difference or incongruousness.... thanks anyway

agree  Marta Scott: spot on
46 mins

agree  Rachel Fell
1 hr

agree  Irene McClure: nice one!
2 hrs

agree  Julie Barber
3 hrs

agree  Omar Lima Quintana
3 hrs

agree  Colin Morley (X): fiefdoms has my vote for sure - but separate doesn't necessarily give a sense of the mediaeval. Maybe Mediaeval fiefdoms?
4 hrs
  -> well I figured that fiefdom sounded mediaeval enough and added the separate for the part about "ne'er the twain shall meet" but separate is an optional extra

agree  rkillings
6 hrs

agree  Fabio Barbieri: It is especially appropriate in academic or research conditions; to speak of a professor's "fiefdom" is normal. Colin Morley, the word "fiefdom" itself conveys medievalism.
8 hrs
  -> thanks for the confirmation
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
lead to authority (leadership) being divided (split up) in an archaic fashion


Explanation:
I indeed agree that a literal translation may not be the best answer here.

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Note added at 20 mins (2009-06-21 10:51:20 GMT)
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Your explanations point out the risks of "pouvoir éclaté" with each one holding tight.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 23 mins (2009-06-21 10:54:47 GMT)
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You might even add "taking us back to the Middle Ages" if you wish to remain somewhat close to the original text.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2009-06-21 11:52:12 GMT)
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Yes, you might therefore use "responsibilities or decision-taking". My point was to stress the risk of too much independence in decision-taking for one particular project.

Peter LEGUIE
Local time: 12:47
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench, Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Hi Peter - Thanks for your suggestion . I don't think it's about who has authority over what. The author is concerned that the different aspects of the project are developing along their own lines and that when they all come together at the end, there will be nothing that draws them together. It'll be a hotch-potch of elements rather than a single, coherent whole. I hope this makes sense!

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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
infighting


Explanation:
Angli/reculturicize it? I'm not sure I know how to say "infighting" in French, but something about medieval baronies would come close. And isn't that one of the things baronies were best at, fighting amongst themselves?

Loss of a common cause,and infighting.

Bourth (X)
Local time: 12:47
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 154

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helen Shiner: unless they were fighting together against the king... I mean, of course, Magna Carta etc.
8 hrs
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12 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
a Middle Ages' style system of baronies


Explanation:
I'll go for the literal alternative.

Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
Local time: 07:47
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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Reference comments


44 mins
Reference: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baronnies_(Provence)

Reference information:
Les Baronnies tirent leur nom des Barons de Mévouillon et de Montauban qui, du XI au XIIIe siècle avaient acquis une grande indépendance sous la suzeraineté lointaine des Empereurs d’Allemagne. Ces deux seigneuries furent définitivement annexées au Dauphiné en 1315 et 1317, avant d'être cédées, comme partie de cette principauté, au royaume de France en 1349.

polyglot45
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 12
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1 hr
Reference: theories of power

Reference information:
4 types of economic power: elitism, pluralism, functional fiefdoms and neighbourhood control. I was about to propose something along the lines of pluralism, but read this - p. 286-87 and now think that polyglot45's idea is just great.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cxxJkKYAzioC&pg=PA286&lpg...

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 32
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