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solidariamente

English translation: severally [in the name of the consortium]

07:55 Jun 17, 2009
Spanish to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / POA
Spanish term or phrase: solidariamente
'Facultades que pueden ejercer de forma solidaria hasta un límite de XX y de forma mancomunada, dos cualquiera de ellos, sin límite alguno (...)'
Before that, there is a long list of names. I understand that these people, individually, each one of them, may exercise certain powers, and jointly any two of them may exercise the same powers to no maximum amount.
Would you then translate 'solidariamente' here as 'severally'?
MariaDRR
Spain
Local time: 03:38
English translation:severally [in the name of the consortium]
Explanation:
I think that the common idea that solidariamente means "jointly and severally" is a bit of a myth. The best answer on the subject I have seen (and one that made me reconsider my own stance is this: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_portuguese/law_general/...

I realize it is En-Pt, but the Spanish and Portuguese legal traditions map neatly into each other in this matter (though not in others).

Before I say more, this links to a document that explains matters well in a situation similar to yours: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/opg/ll_opg.nsf/vwFiles...$file/EG_appt_form_revised_2005.doc

Here is how to illustrate. Suppose you and I decide to collaborate on a project and either can act to further its purposes. You are an honest person, but I am a scoundrel.

As far as our power to act, we can say that our actions are solidárias insofar as the company is concerned. Whatever I do, it is presupposed that I have your authorization to act, and vice-versa. When I do something (say, defraud a poor widow) am not, however, acting jointly with you because you did not take part in the action. You could say that I am acting severally, if you are using formal legal register, or individually if you are speaking like a "normal" person. This is what happens in the case of the universities. Any one of them can act in the name of the others (to a limit, which they specified).

There may be contexts where one acts jointly and severally but I don't believe any of them would fit a partnership situation (concurring judicial opinions is what comes to mind).

Now that I have defrauded the poor widow is that the difference shows. Let's say that it is decided that we are jointly responsible (and jointly only, not jointly and severally). If we are jointly responsible, it is possible for a court to say that, in this case, you bear only 10% of the resposibility (because you were my partner, even if you did nothing wrong) and I bear 90%. The widow can only get 10% of her damages from you, even if I disappear.

If we were severally responsible, it would be hard to get even the 10% from you.

If we were jointly and severally responsible, then you would be in trouble because what that legal formula means is that the widow can recover the full amount of damages from either of us. If I disappear, you are responsible for the full 100% and your only recourse is to try to recover my share from me later. In fact, in a case of joint and several responsibility, the widow only needs to sue one of us and it is up to that party to bring others into the suit or try to recover later. Notice that joint and several liability does not eliminate the allocation of responsibility present in joint liability, but makes it a secondary concern as far as the interest of the victim is concerned. This is where responsabilidade solidaria comes in, as any one of the parties in such a case answers for the others. I am not sure if such a party can recover from the others if it only has responsabilidade solidaria, or if it also needs to be conjunta, but the point here is that solidaria is not the same as joint and several.





Selected response from:

AlexMiranda
Brazil
Local time: 22:38
Grading comment
Really helpful explanation! Thanks
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +7jointly and severally
Paul Stevens
5solidarily
argosys
4on solidarity basis
Luiz Vasconcelos
4 -1severally [in the name of the consortium]
AlexMiranda
3jointly
Tom2004
Summary of reference entries provided
Just answered, and
ARS54

Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +7
jointly and severally


Explanation:
is what I would use.

HTH

Paul Stevens
Local time: 02:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 31
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Paul. Would you use 'jointly and severally' even when it may mean 'individualmente'?


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Margarita Ezquerra (Smart Translators, S.L.)
6 mins
  -> Many thanks.
agree  Ruth Ramsey
31 mins
  -> Many thanks, Ruth
agree  DaceM (X)
3 hrs
  -> Many thanks.
agree  Mónica Sauza
6 hrs
  -> Many thanks.
agree  neilmac: Didn't this come up recently?
10 hrs
  -> Many thanks.
agree  eski: Quite so. :))
18 hrs
  -> Many thanks.
agree  biggiebiggie
5159 days
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
severally [in the name of the consortium]


Explanation:
I think that the common idea that solidariamente means "jointly and severally" is a bit of a myth. The best answer on the subject I have seen (and one that made me reconsider my own stance is this: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_portuguese/law_general/...

I realize it is En-Pt, but the Spanish and Portuguese legal traditions map neatly into each other in this matter (though not in others).

Before I say more, this links to a document that explains matters well in a situation similar to yours: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/opg/ll_opg.nsf/vwFiles...$file/EG_appt_form_revised_2005.doc

Here is how to illustrate. Suppose you and I decide to collaborate on a project and either can act to further its purposes. You are an honest person, but I am a scoundrel.

As far as our power to act, we can say that our actions are solidárias insofar as the company is concerned. Whatever I do, it is presupposed that I have your authorization to act, and vice-versa. When I do something (say, defraud a poor widow) am not, however, acting jointly with you because you did not take part in the action. You could say that I am acting severally, if you are using formal legal register, or individually if you are speaking like a "normal" person. This is what happens in the case of the universities. Any one of them can act in the name of the others (to a limit, which they specified).

There may be contexts where one acts jointly and severally but I don't believe any of them would fit a partnership situation (concurring judicial opinions is what comes to mind).

Now that I have defrauded the poor widow is that the difference shows. Let's say that it is decided that we are jointly responsible (and jointly only, not jointly and severally). If we are jointly responsible, it is possible for a court to say that, in this case, you bear only 10% of the resposibility (because you were my partner, even if you did nothing wrong) and I bear 90%. The widow can only get 10% of her damages from you, even if I disappear.

If we were severally responsible, it would be hard to get even the 10% from you.

If we were jointly and severally responsible, then you would be in trouble because what that legal formula means is that the widow can recover the full amount of damages from either of us. If I disappear, you are responsible for the full 100% and your only recourse is to try to recover my share from me later. In fact, in a case of joint and several responsibility, the widow only needs to sue one of us and it is up to that party to bring others into the suit or try to recover later. Notice that joint and several liability does not eliminate the allocation of responsibility present in joint liability, but makes it a secondary concern as far as the interest of the victim is concerned. This is where responsabilidade solidaria comes in, as any one of the parties in such a case answers for the others. I am not sure if such a party can recover from the others if it only has responsabilidade solidaria, or if it also needs to be conjunta, but the point here is that solidaria is not the same as joint and several.







AlexMiranda
Brazil
Local time: 22:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 20
Grading comment
Really helpful explanation! Thanks

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  biggiebiggie: I think you misunderstand what "jointly and severally means". You write: "If we were severally responsible, it would be hard to get even the 10% from you". The opposite is true: "severally" means each is liable for 100%.
5158 days
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
jointly


Explanation:
As I read the passage, I understand that two of the persons acting together (ie. jointly) can exercise certain transactions.

I do NOT see it as being BOTH joint (together) AND several (in one's individual capacity) as the emphasis here seems to be on the need for any two of them (together) to act.

Tom2004
Canada
Local time: 21:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 313
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
solidarily


Explanation:
In adverb form.

Solidary (adj.)
Having community of interests and responsibilities.

Men are solidary, or copartners; and not isolated. --M. Arnold.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

–adjective
characterized by or involving community of responsibilities and interests.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solidary

argosys
Local time: 09:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 56
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
on solidarity basis


Explanation:
Check the hits (5.730 in many different contexts).

Luiz Vasconcelos
Brazil
Local time: 22:38
Works in field
Native speaker of: Portuguese
PRO pts in category: 24
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Reference comments


13 hrs
Reference: Just answered, and

Reference information:
see also ->>

www.proz.com/kudoz/spanish_to_english/.../800604-solidario_...

ARS54
Italy
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in ItalianItalian
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