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  3. Idioms / Maxims / Sayings

Entre nuage de fumée et arguments fumeux

English translation: Smoke and mirrors

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:Entre nuage de fumée et arguments fumeux
English translation:Smoke and mirrors
Entered by: Rachel Mackay

11:36 Aug 3, 2008
French to English translations [PRO]
Idioms / Maxims / Sayings
French term or phrase: Entre nuage de fumée et arguments fumeux
The title to an article about oil revenue made by foreign companies operating in one country, being expatriated back home - for and against arguments etc.

Many thanks for any suggestions.
Rachel Mackay
Local time: 18:34
Smoke and mirrors
Explanation:
A favourite for EN title-writers, with echoes of the original version.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-08-03 13:26:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To my mind, titles aren't really candidates for "translation" as such: more a case of deciding on the right ideas to highlight (which may be the same ones picked up in the corresponding title in the source text), and then devising a title in keeping with any other titles and with the register of the whole piece/destination environment (e.g. the publication in which it is to appear).

Short-and-snappy might be right: or you could perhaps extend this into a sentencekin with the right kind of cadence for the whole piece.

And then again, the (sub-)editor might end up overriding/reworking it anyway!
Selected response from:

Martin Cassell
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:34
Grading comment
Thank you all for all your great suggestions and comments. Martin's answer fitted the best though!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +7Smoke and mirrors
Martin Cassell
2 +4A cloud of smoke and some murky arguments
Clair Pickworth
3 +2Smoke on the fishy water
Bourth (X)
4Between clouds of smoke and cloudy arguments
B D Finch
4Between a haze of smoke and hazy arguments
KathyPro
4Clouds of smoke & heated arguments
lexeme
4Fuming in Clouds of Smoke
Katarina Peters
3On / about clouds of smoke and smoky arguments
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
3between hot air and heated arguments
Speakering (X)
2between a rock and a hard place
MatthewLaSon


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
On / about clouds of smoke and smoky arguments


Explanation:
:)

Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
Spain
Local time: 19:34
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
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16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Between clouds of smoke and cloudy arguments


Explanation:
Though this does change the repetition from fumée to nuage, I think it gets the meaning. I also thought of "Between smoke and smoke-screen arguments", but it seems to be further from the original meaning of "fumeux" (vagueness).

"His letter is entirely free from labored and **cloudy arguments** about economic principles, and simply paints out the fact that the accumulation silver must of ..."
query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10614F73F5B10738DDDA10A94DA405B8584F0D3 - 2k

B D Finch
France
Local time: 19:34
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 28
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +4
A cloud of smoke and some murky arguments


Explanation:
Just a suggestion without having seen the content of the following paragraph !!

Could the "nuage de fumée" be a smokescreen?"

smoky, hazy, foggy if you prefer for "murky" ?



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 mins (2008-08-03 11:57:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

this is of course quite a negative take on it !! Why was I immediately so suspicious of oil companies ??!!!

Clair Pickworth
France
Local time: 19:34
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helen Shiner: This is my favourite because the 'murky' sounds so naturally English. Would prefer 'on clouds of' but otherwise it doesn't sound like a translation which many of the other suggestions do.
1 hr
  -> thanks!
agree  Martin Cassell: I agree with Helen, this is an idiomatic way of staying close to the original wording
1 hr
  -> thanks!
agree  Jean-Louis S.: Smokescreen and...
1 hr
  -> thanks
agree  myrden
9 hrs
  -> thanks
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Between a haze of smoke and hazy arguments


Explanation:
Preferring hazy arguments to cloudy arguments

KathyPro
Local time: 19:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Clouds of smoke & heated arguments


Explanation:
or "Between clouds of smoke and heated arguments"

lexeme
France
Local time: 19:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +7
Smoke and mirrors


Explanation:
A favourite for EN title-writers, with echoes of the original version.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-08-03 13:26:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To my mind, titles aren't really candidates for "translation" as such: more a case of deciding on the right ideas to highlight (which may be the same ones picked up in the corresponding title in the source text), and then devising a title in keeping with any other titles and with the register of the whole piece/destination environment (e.g. the publication in which it is to appear).

Short-and-snappy might be right: or you could perhaps extend this into a sentencekin with the right kind of cadence for the whole piece.

And then again, the (sub-)editor might end up overriding/reworking it anyway!

Martin Cassell
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:34
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Thank you all for all your great suggestions and comments. Martin's answer fitted the best though!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  kashew: It's got to be shorter in EN - and why not not-word-for-word?
32 mins
  -> thanks!
agree  NancyLynn
1 hr
  -> thanks!
agree  Bourth (X): Contains all the meaning, esp. that of "fumeux" = dishonest, dubious.
1 hr
  -> thanks Bourth
agree  Clair Pickworth: A snappier way of getting the message across!
1 hr
  -> thanks Clair
agree  Carol Gullidge: yes, or even "Of smoke and mirrors" (cf "Of Mice and Men")? ... depending
1 hr
  -> thanks Carol
agree  Emma Paulay: http://oilsmokeandmirrors.com///Yes, I did think that too, but either way it shows your idea is spot on!
1 hr
  -> thanks Emma -- of course if "Oil Smoke and Mirrors" has a very high profile for the readership concerned, it might have connotations that Rachel would prefer to avoid!
agree  roisin56
10 hrs
  -> thanks roisín
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Smoke on the fishy water


Explanation:
For Deep Purple fans

i.e. Smoke screen doesn't mask dubious logic.

Assuming that is the message conveyed by the article.

Still, Martin's "Smoke and mirrors" is miles better.

Bourth (X)
Local time: 19:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 76

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Clair Pickworth: aha, not bad ... I would combine our answers and go for "smoke on the murky water" then !!
26 mins
agree  Martin Cassell: Leaving Deep Purple ever further behind, how about "Smokescreen over murky waters" ? // kashew, see http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:fifexqr5ldke (track 5)
41 mins
  -> "Smokescreen over murky waters" does it less elegantly than "Smoke and mirrors" which sums up the deceitful aspect.
neutral  kashew: Simon & Garfunkel!
48 mins
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Fuming in Clouds of Smoke


Explanation:
there'se a catchy title...(fuming = arguing ferociously)

Katarina Peters
Canada
Local time: 13:34
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian, Native in EnglishEnglish
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
between a rock and a hard place


Explanation:
Hello,

Is this the idea?

There's not where to go as they're caught between "cloud of smoke and heated arguments"?

I hope this helps.

MatthewLaSon
Local time: 13:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 30
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
between hot air and heated arguments


Explanation:
in the USA, "hot air" refers to something that doesn't have a real value expanding, so I think this is in the same jargon venue.

Speakering (X)
Native speaker of: Native in MacedonianMacedonian, Native in Serbo-CroatSerbo-Croat
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