Divers: Insoumis

English translation: not submitted

17:56 May 24, 2008

French to English translations [PRO]
Science - Certificates, Diplomas, Licenses, CVs / birth certificate

French term or phrase: Divers: Insoumis

Hi all!

On the birth certificate of my great-grandfather reads:

Bardos ....1886
Junot Pierre
Divers : Insoumis
Fils de :Junot Jean.Baptiste agé de : 42 Divers : cantonnier
et de :Moulgas Pauline agée de : 44 Divers : ménagère

What does "Divers : Insoumis" mean in this context?
Could you elaborate?

Thanks in advance!
alicia

amj_services (X) KudoZ activity Questions: 51 (none open) (4 closed without grading) Answers: 279 Germany
Local time: 16:00

English translation:not submitted

Explanation:
It means that no other mentions were made apart from that which is on the certificate. ex they could have given the religion or nationality if different to the parties.

Selected response from:

L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen
South Africa
Local time: 16:00

Grading comment

Thanks! I go for your answer. If I haven't found any answer that gives me another possibility, may be it means that this term was not as important in the birth certificate as I thought it might be. Thank you for your time!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

Summary of answers provided

4 +3

not submitted

L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen

Other information: none provided

B D Finch

3 +1

draft dodger

sueaberwoman

not present

Bruon

Discussion entries: 5

Answers

11 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): +3

not submitted

Explanation:
It means that no other mentions were made apart from that which is on the certificate. ex they could have given the religion or nationality if different to the parties.

L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen
South Africa
Local time: 16:00
Works in field
Native speaker of:

English,

Dutch
PRO pts in category: 12

Grading comment

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

neutral

sueaberwoman: ..or the profession as is listed further down...This is the logical meaning; hopefully it doesn't mean he was punished for military insubordination! (another possibility)...Partially confirmed by further searching...

24 mins

-> Mais oui... merci!

agree

Ingeborg Gowans (X)

41 mins

-> Merci!

agree

Ewa Chojnowska

1 hr

-> Merci

agree

Steve Melling: Or perhaps "Not Applicable"

15 hrs

-> Merci

neutral

Bruon: Does not sound idiomatic in this acception though. Plus, French civil registry administration does/did not consider religion, and parents' nationality was no doubt a mandatory mention, not a subsidiary one./Sorry,didn't mean to offend,but just to clarify.

18 hrs

-> You are missing the point. What is required is the translation of the term. The "examples given" are only to given as a hypothetical suggestions to assist the asker.

16 hrs confidence:

Other information: none provided

Explanation:
He was far to young to have committed an act of military insubordination! Note that "divers" for each of his parents is filled in with their occupations, and potentially could have contained other information relating to them.

B D Finch
France
Local time: 16:00
Works in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 93

3 hrs confidence:

not present

Explanation:
Sounds odd. May be to mention that the baby was not presented to the civil official when registering the birth. The word insoumis is almost exclusively used to mean a draft dodger (at least in France), which obviously cannot apply here.
Where (in which country) was the certificate issued?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2008-05-25 13:22:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Is this document actually a birth certificate?
The word "insoumis" would be probably an old bureaucratic jargon, maybe to mean baby was not physically acknowledged when registered, or the birth may have been notified later than the legal time limit (ie, today in France: within 3 days after birth, probably the same at that time), which is BTW an offence subject to a fine and some kafkaesque trouble and should be mentionned on the civil registry.

Bruon
Local time: 16:00

19 hrs confidence:

peer agreement (net): +1

draft dodger

Explanation:
I'm afraid that there is a good chance that this in fact means that Junot Pierre was recorded as being "insoumis", a draft dodger, although it does not actually mean that he was one.

Local " Etat Civil" records centralise information of several types, so it stands to reason that in the early 20th century, especially in time of war, information did not always reach the appropriate authorities -- (he could have had a deferment, been abroad, or even reported for service in a different region.)

Even today, in France, the "extrait de naissance" is added to (For example, I've just looked at copy of my husband's -- notification of our marriage was added to it). This is because in France the official copy of the Birth Certificate is kept by the "État Civil" of the town of birth. A certified copy is provided upon request by the family.

A copy made at a later date may have corrected the information if indeed it was incorrect -- I'd recommend getting in touch with the local archives to see if they can get you a copy of the final version.

"… Pour obtenir les actes eux-mêmes, il faut s'adresser aux mairies qui ont établi les actes ; si les actes de décès sont délivrés à toute personne qui en fait la demande, les actes de naissance et de mariage de moins de cent ans sont délivrés sous forme d'extrait."

Other information is added to the document throughout the person's lifetime:

" L'acte de naissance : comporte des mentions marginales de mariage, divorce, et depuis 1945 de décès. Mais aussi nom et prénom de l'enfant et de ses parents, ainsi que leur âge, professions et adresse."

However, for a birth which occurred more than 100 years ago, no copy is now directly available -- the requester must consult the Departmental archives:

"Pour les actes datés de plus de 100 ans il vous sera nécessaire de venir aux Archives départementales, puisque celles-ci n'effectuent pas de recherches pour les particuliers et qu'elles conservent l'état civil de toutes les communes du département."
http://www.cg55.fr/culture/user_archive_recherche_famille.ht...

I assume that what you have is an "extrait de naissance" (copy), to which -- as said above -- other vital information may have been added.

Good luck finding out his real situation!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2008-05-25 13:49:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Other links:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=KpIDAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA448&lp...

En novembre 1911, Léon DAGOIS est "déclaré insoumis" par les militaires ayant "manqué la convocation du premier Appel du 18 septembre 1911" dans l'armée de réserve. Il est alors "recherché et arrêté par la Police de la Seine à Paris le 14 juin 1913". Il s'explique alors sur son état de santé et est déclaré "Réformé de l'armée de réserve" le 27 juin 1913 par la 6ème Commission spéciale de la Réforme de la Seine pour "fracture de la rotule gauche non consolidée; déformation du genou; les mouvements ne se font que par l'action des ailerons". Comme il était apte au Service militaire entre 1907 et 1909, nous supposons qu'un accident lui est arrivé entre 1909 et 1913. s. Il est déclaré sur sa fiche de matricule militaire dressée en décembre 1922 qu'il "a bénéficié de la loi d'amnistie militaire du 1er août 1913".

Toutefois bien que "réformé" Léon DAGOIS n'en est pas moins puni
pour ne s'être pas présenté à sa convocation militaire de 1911.
http://corinne.durand94.free.fr/Leon_DAGOIS.html

sueaberwoman
Local time: 16:00
Specializes in field
Native speaker of:

English,

French
PRO pts in category: 32

Notes to answerer

Asker: I know certain events are recorded in the birth certificate, eg marriages/death. I have seen many already. But I find it strange that a birth certificate would record the military status of a man! Added to the fact that I've seen his records of military service.... :-| /Unfortunately, my French is only rudimentary, especially legal jargon!

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