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He / She vs. They

English translation: Below

11:43 Jul 22, 2005
English language (monolingual) [Non-PRO]
Medical - Linguistics / pc
English term or phrase: He / She vs. They
Es geht um die Terms of Business in einem Dokument. Weiss nicht, welche Ausdrucksweise am gängisten ist, was pc ist, etc.

The Customer acknowledges that he is over 18 years of age.
The Customer acknowledges that he/she is over 18 years of age.
The Customer acknowledges that they are over 18 years of age.

The Provider may at any time without prior notice block the Users’ Account with XXX if ***they*** are found in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement.

... if ***he*** is found in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement

if ***she/he*** is found in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement

TIA!
gfish
Local time: 12:16
Selected answer:Below
Explanation:
You could, of course, use "they" if you change it slightly, ie:
"Customers acknowledge that they are over 18 years of age."

I personally prefer it to the clumsy he/she form (which used to be "he" when I was at school)- it has only gained popularity as a poor PO compromise IMO.


But with the following sentence, while you could use either he/she, it may be better to use the word "customer" again as in a normal legal document (where repetition is more accepted than in prose), ie:

if "the customer" is found (to be) in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 58 mins (2005-07-22 12:41:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I meant \"while you could use either he/she or they,\"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 56 mins (2005-07-22 15:39:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here\'s something else t othink about:

If some customers are companies (i.e. a legal identity), then we\'d have to say he/she/it all over the place!

Heehee!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 57 mins (2005-07-22 15:41:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry again, I mean of course \"legal ENTITY\". (fingers all thumbs today).
Selected response from:

Gareth McMillan
Local time: 21:16
Grading comment
vielen dank für diese hilfreiche antwort!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +10Below
Gareth McMillan
4 +5he/she
CMJ_Trans (X)
5 +3use verb in -ing form
Paul Dixon
3 +1Alternate
Steven Sidore
4he/she
IanW (X)
3 +1some related links and the singular "they"
Balasubramaniam L.


Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +5
he/she


Explanation:
in the past I would have said just "he" but this is no longer PC.
"They" is grammatically wrong

CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 21:16
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: since English has become so 'universal' and everyone thinks they can have a go, mistakes are rampant-but they remain mistakes just the same.
8 mins
neutral  Lancashireman: ‘They’ may be grammatically wrong but is increasingly used as the non-gender specific pronoun in UK government publications intended to be read and understood by the general public.
14 mins
  -> sorry but I don't agree - the fact that people may talk carelessly is one thing but we should do nothing to encourage it in writing - shame on you!
agree  Jonathan Todd
17 mins
agree  Bianca Jacobsohn: Although "he" is still quite prevalent
19 mins
agree  Laurens Landkroon
1 hr
agree  Rachel Ward: Is this 'cos we're all just sticklers? :O)
1 hr
neutral  silfilla: *they* is accepted usage these days to avoid the he/she problem which becomes very cumbersome; it has nothing to do with sloppiness. Languages and grammar are not written in stone; they are living things, always evolving in ways that suit people's needs!
1 hr
  -> but when it is ugly and unnecessary, right minded people should resist
neutral  Charlie Bavington: The less formal the style, the more "they" is accepted in the UK these days. Not appropriate for a contract, granted, but in any case all pronouns ought to be avoided in contracts.
7 hrs
neutral  Balasubramaniam L.: It seems "they" was used in the singular quite often in Middle English. Please see the links in my answer.
18 hrs
neutral  Gareth McMillan: How can you say that "they" is wrong in the asker's example. IMO there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with it at all.
1 day 2 hrs
neutral  John Bowden: ""They" has been commonly used as a singular pronoun for several hundred years - see Balasubramaniam's answer - whether it's used is a matter of preference, not "incorrect" usage.
5 days
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Alternate


Explanation:
This is more for future kudoz searchers than anything else, but in academic writing one often sees the two alternatingly used (i.e. consistant within a given example or anecdote, but then the other used for the next anecdote.)

Steven Sidore
Germany
Local time: 21:16
Works in field
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  silfilla: yes
1 hr
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3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
he/she


Explanation:
Use "he/she" here. "He" would be generally construed as sexist and "they" as grammatically incorrect.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 mins (2005-07-22 11:49:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I generally make a point of making plurals where possible.

Der Befragte muss eine Nummer zwischen 1 und 10 wählen\"
Respondents must choose a number between 1 and 10

Obviously, you can\'t do that here, but it\'s worth bearing in mind, because in less formal texts, people tend to trip over the \"he/she\" construction.

I remember the Irish Examination Board using \"she\" where the Germans would use \"er\" - a rather pointless case of robbing Peter to pay Paul ...

IanW (X)
Local time: 21:16
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  silfilla: I also use plurals where possible but *they* is accepted usage these days to avoid the he/she problem; as Andrew says, it's becoming a nongendered specific pronoun
1 hr
neutral  Charlie Bavington: plurals are good, but as you say not here. I tend to find that in contracts, pronouns are scarce and repetition of the noun is the norm, even if it lacks literary style :-)
7 hrs
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56 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +10
Below


Explanation:
You could, of course, use "they" if you change it slightly, ie:
"Customers acknowledge that they are over 18 years of age."

I personally prefer it to the clumsy he/she form (which used to be "he" when I was at school)- it has only gained popularity as a poor PO compromise IMO.


But with the following sentence, while you could use either he/she, it may be better to use the word "customer" again as in a normal legal document (where repetition is more accepted than in prose), ie:

if "the customer" is found (to be) in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement...



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 58 mins (2005-07-22 12:41:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I meant \"while you could use either he/she or they,\"

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 56 mins (2005-07-22 15:39:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here\'s something else t othink about:

If some customers are companies (i.e. a legal identity), then we\'d have to say he/she/it all over the place!

Heehee!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 57 mins (2005-07-22 15:41:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry again, I mean of course \"legal ENTITY\". (fingers all thumbs today).

Gareth McMillan
Local time: 21:16
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
vielen dank für diese hilfreiche antwort!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  silfilla: that's an excellent way to get around the problem and create a straightforward English text
1 hr
  -> Thank you.
agree  Daniel Bird: neat idea - in the specific case we're answering, use of "they" would appear wrong to any adult native speaker; I acknowledge that "they" is gaining currency in other instances. Be clumsy.
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Daniel, but I have to say I have less problem using "they" than I do with "he/she"- just sounds 'orrible to me.
agree  Kirill Semenov
3 hrs
  -> Thank you.
agree  Charlie Bavington: With repeating the noun (sorry, I missed that the first time round - see also - http://www.proz.com/topic/34657 ), as it's a contract (and also with using plurals to avoid the issue in other contexts)
6 hrs
  -> So what about if the single customer is in fact a legal entity? Contracts are about accurately recording what has been agreed, they do not need to conform to some form of hack legal speak- that's all disappearing- fast.
agree  flipendo
8 hrs
  -> Thank you.
agree  Alexandra Tussing
14 hrs
  -> Thank you
agree  Saiwai Translation Services
19 hrs
  -> Thank you.
agree  Maria Ferstl
20 hrs
  -> Thank you.
agree  Saleh Chowdhury, Ph.D.
1 day 4 hrs
  -> Thank you.
agree  Robert Donahue (X): Nice explanation Gareth. This should prove to be very helpful.
1 day 22 hrs
  -> Thanks Robert.
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
he / she vs. they
use verb in -ing form


Explanation:
The customer does hereby confirm (better than "acknowledge") being over 18 years of age.
This is what would normally appear in a contract.

Paul Dixon
Brazil
Local time: 16:16
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 5

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  sarahl (X)
4 hrs
agree  Charlie Bavington: Yep, that's loads better for the first one certainly - I don't know what I was thinking :-) [that anwer is now hidden anyway as it was the same as Gareth's, in essence]
14 hrs
agree  Gareth McMillan: "Being" is neat, but "does" just doesn't belong in this century, IMO.
18 hrs
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17 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
he / she vs. they
some related links and the singular "they"


Explanation:
There was a discussion in one of the forums about the use of "it" and "they", which may be relevant here. The url is this:

http://www.proz.com/post/244829#244829

In this discussion, John Bowden has mentioned the singular "they" which was quite common in Middle English. The relevant url is this:

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/029256.htm

Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:46
Native speaker of: Native in HindiHindi
PRO pts in category: 12

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  John Bowden: Thanks for that - I'm glad somebody reads what I write!
4 days
  -> I found that posting quite interesting. In standarizing languages we tend to lose a bit of the variety inherent in complex usages.
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