| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | dove vs. pigeon - how to explain the difference? Thread poster: Monika Rozwarzewska
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Mary Holihan 
United States
Local time: 17:51
Member (2010)
French to English
This has been a fun posting! It is so unique that only translators could get so revved up over a topic like this. As mentioned, they are both family Columbidae, and Peterson's Field Guide to the Birds lists 13 types of dove and 4 types of pigeon in the US (Eastern) edition. There are many more types of grey doves than white here in US. They are usually smaller and rounder than pigeons. In NYC, pigeons are called "flying rats" because they are such scavengers. How to explain the difference to peo... See more This has been a fun posting! It is so unique that only translators could get so revved up over a topic like this. As mentioned, they are both family Columbidae, and Peterson's Field Guide to the Birds lists 13 types of dove and 4 types of pigeon in the US (Eastern) edition. There are many more types of grey doves than white here in US. They are usually smaller and rounder than pigeons. In NYC, pigeons are called "flying rats" because they are such scavengers. How to explain the difference to people studying English? I would say it is like comparing two similar breeds of dogs: let's say the standard poodle vs. the toy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ornithological Racism! | Feb 14, 2005 |
As pointed out above, Pigeons get bad press in English and Doves get all the kudos.
Common, grey, city pigeons are known as "micks" in the area where I come from. (Liverpool) They are also known as "rats with wings" - and seen as great pests. The use of the word "micks" is a racist slur, since it comes from a slang word for the Irish, once viewed as unwelcome and omnipresent, just like the guano dropping hordes of pigeons in the city centre.
The dove on the other hand,... See more As pointed out above, Pigeons get bad press in English and Doves get all the kudos.
Common, grey, city pigeons are known as "micks" in the area where I come from. (Liverpool) They are also known as "rats with wings" - and seen as great pests. The use of the word "micks" is a racist slur, since it comes from a slang word for the Irish, once viewed as unwelcome and omnipresent, just like the guano dropping hordes of pigeons in the city centre.
The dove on the other hand, gets its good press from the story of Noah, where it is the bird returning with an olive branch that marks the beginning of a new covenant for mankind - later added to by the rainbow. Of course, Picasso also helped make it popular in the 20th Century, as did the UN's adoption of one of Picasso's painted doves as a symbol of world peace.
I doubt if the laymen could tell the birds apart if it wasn't for the colour, and indeed, many European languages do not distinguish between them. So, in English at least, this really is a case of ornithological racism... Well, that and the fact that the grey variety have adapted so well to cities and multiplied to often unmanageable proportions, while the dove has largely kept out of mankind's way. (If you were the bird of peace, you'd know why, sadly ) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Monika Rozwarzewska
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:51
Member (2006)
English to Polish
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TOPIC STARTER | thank you everyone | Feb 14, 2005 |
seems that such a little "unimportant" thing can start an interesting discussion!
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Sarah Brenchley wrote:
I would explain it as a dove is white (traditionally a symbol of peace) and a pigeon is grey/black/white and commonly found in cities.
Hope it helps.
Sarah.
Thats not true... Pigeons can be white and can be many other colors. The common Pigeon in the US is a none native species found in Europe. Doves live everywhere and can be many many colors...
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French2English wrote:
In all the replies, I don't think anyone has pointed out that the connotations of the word 'dove' are usually positive and those of the word 'pigeon' are usually negative. This is because the birds classified as doves rather than pigeons are usually prettier and have long been associated with love and peace. The birds classified as pigeons are nowadays generally considered to be a nuisance (except to people who like or actually keep them as pets!) and there are a few expressions including the word which also tend to have negative connotations, such as 'pigeon-toed', 'pigeon-chested', or even 'pigeon-holed'.
There's a similar thing with raven and crow. A lot of native English speakers would not be able to tell you the difference between the two - and indeed there may not even be a difference, But 'raven' sounds grand and striking and has a good connotation - conjuring up the image of the famous birds at the Tower of London and all the history and tradition - whereas 'crow' has a bad connotation and has even come to be used pejoratively about women (what a surprise!) to describe an elderly woman.
I don't know if this helps - but I really do think it's more to do with the associations of the words in question and how they are used than the scientific meanings when the two things are so similar that it's difficult to tell the difference.
Also there is appearance difference vs crows and ravens. Look at the wings, and the size of the bird and the beak. Also there are many types of crows and ravens in the world. And to find out the certain bird you must study ravens and crows same goes for pigeons and doves. There is also many types of seagulls and other birds out there and not just one type of animal...
| | | | | In Defense of Pigeons | Jan 24, 2013 |
Many comments have adduced negative traits to the pigeon, and positive attributes to the dove. The fact is pigeons have saved probably thousands of lives throughout history, including the last two world wars. They won medals for doing so. The negative associations are often put forward by pest control companies. See the PICAS website for the real truth behind this. Ironically, many of the "doves" released at weddings or funerals, are actually white homing pigeons. Both "doves" and "pigeons... See more Many comments have adduced negative traits to the pigeon, and positive attributes to the dove. The fact is pigeons have saved probably thousands of lives throughout history, including the last two world wars. They won medals for doing so. The negative associations are often put forward by pest control companies. See the PICAS website for the real truth behind this. Ironically, many of the "doves" released at weddings or funerals, are actually white homing pigeons. Both "doves" and "pigeons" are decended from the Rock Dove.
Checking out the full facts about pigeons is surely the most important thing before attempting to explain the difference to students - otherside personal bias, based on misinformation is passed on in error. Of all the animals and birds alive today, the pigeon has probably saved more lives than any other. The bird was given toxic levels of bird flu to check whether it might carry bird flu. It was immune. (PICAS) It has lived close to humankind for thousands of years and only in the last 50 years has it been disrespected. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 05:51
Chinese to English
| In defense of bias | Jan 24, 2013 |
Hayd wrote:
Many comments have adduced negative traits to the pigeon...Checking out the full facts about pigeons is surely the most important thing before attempting to explain the difference to students - otherside personal bias, based on misinformation is passed on in error...
It's certainly useful to know things about pigeons and doves. But it's also worth noting that the reality of pigeons and doves is fairly irrelevant to the translator. If an author has unfairly painted pigeons as scavengers, it's not our job to correct her. Unless you're translating an ornithological text, in which case you may need knowledge about birds, it's much more useful to know about the most common perceptions of these birds than it is to know the zoological/historical facts. Because perceptions are what go into forming texts.
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| Doves are romantic and pigeons are just common | Jan 24, 2013 |
I was almost going to go along with the doves good, pigeons bad thing, but I don't have any aversion to pigeons. Just as long as they don't coo too loudly by my window early on spring mornings when I've been working late!
I remember one exam season when a couple had nested outside my student room. Nothing would deter them, and I slept downstairs on the sofa... until my enthusiastic early-rising housemates came for breakfast - the sofa was in the kitchen-common room!
And... See more I was almost going to go along with the doves good, pigeons bad thing, but I don't have any aversion to pigeons. Just as long as they don't coo too loudly by my window early on spring mornings when I've been working late!
I remember one exam season when a couple had nested outside my student room. Nothing would deter them, and I slept downstairs on the sofa... until my enthusiastic early-rising housemates came for breakfast - the sofa was in the kitchen-common room!
And Hayd is right. Doves are poetic and symbols of peace and love, while pigeons just get on with being pigeons - even when we take advantage of them for food or as low-tech e-mails. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heini Aronen
Finland
Local time: 00:51
English to Finnish
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FreeFlyer wrote: Sarah Brenchley wrote:
I would explain it as a dove is white (traditionally a symbol of peace) and a pigeon is grey/black/white and commonly found in cities.
Hope it helps.
Sarah. Thats not true... Pigeons can be white and can be many other colors. The common Pigeon in the US is a none native species found in Europe. Doves live everywhere and can be many many colors...
And there is even the hue of grey described as "dove grey". But I guess a white dove is what people first think of when they hear the word "dove".
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Going back to the Pigeon - bad, Dove - good concept. My wife loves dove shampoo, but I don't think any one would buy pigeon. I've always seen pigeons as rats with wings.
| | | | | In defense of fairness | Jan 25, 2013 |
I fully agree with Phil Hand's comment that if an author has unfairly painted pigeons as scavangers its not the translators job to correct him or her. However this thread began with the question of how to explain the difference between pigeons and doves to students. If unquestioning bias is passed on to students then this multiplies the groundless misconception that doves are "good" and pigeons "bad". Just last week on a television programme here in England called "Winterwatch" it was report... See more I fully agree with Phil Hand's comment that if an author has unfairly painted pigeons as scavangers its not the translators job to correct him or her. However this thread began with the question of how to explain the difference between pigeons and doves to students. If unquestioning bias is passed on to students then this multiplies the groundless misconception that doves are "good" and pigeons "bad". Just last week on a television programme here in England called "Winterwatch" it was reported that pigeons are not only life-saving war heroes (having won 32 Dickins medals for bravery in two wars - the equivalent of V.C.'s for humans) but also remarkably, they have a sense of who they are! How many people, I wonder, who hate "pigeons" indirectly owe their lives to this much maligned bird, having had a closely related ancestor saved by a pigeon? ▲ Collapse
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Heini Aronen
Finland
Local time: 00:51
English to Finnish
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| Just explain it | Jan 25, 2013 |
Hayd wrote:
However this thread began with the question of how to explain the difference between pigeons and doves to students. If unquestioning bias is passed on to students then this multiplies the groundless misconception that doves are "good" and pigeons "bad". Just last week on a television programme here in England called "Winterwatch" it was reported that pigeons are not only life-saving war heroes (having won 32 Dickins medals for bravery in two wars - the equivalent of V.C.'s for humans) but also remarkably, they have a sense of who they are! How many people, I wonder, who hate "pigeons" indirectly owe their lives to this much maligned bird, having had a closely related ancestor saved by a pigeon?
The teacher could explain all this to the students instead of just giving scientific facts about the difference between doves and pigeons (if there even are any – it seems to me that there aren't, really). I think knowing what connotations words have for native speakers can be as important as knowing what they actually "mean", even when those connotations are based on misinformation. The word "dove" is more likely to evoke positive feelings than the word "pigeon", but this doesn't mean that doves actually are "better" than pigeons in an absolute sense. We can understand that, so why couldn't the students?
| | | | Hermeneutica
Switzerland
Local time: 23:51
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Show photos and explain cultural context | Jan 26, 2013 |
The teacher could explain all this to the students instead of just giving scientific facts about the difference between doves and pigeons (if there even are any – it seems to me that there aren't, really). I think knowing what connotations words have for native speakers can be as important as knowing what they actually "mean", even when those connotations are based on misinformation. The word "dove" is more likely to evoke positive feelings than the word "pigeon", but this doesn't mean that do... See more The teacher could explain all this to the students instead of just giving scientific facts about the difference between doves and pigeons (if there even are any – it seems to me that there aren't, really). I think knowing what connotations words have for native speakers can be as important as knowing what they actually "mean", even when those connotations are based on misinformation. The word "dove" is more likely to evoke positive feelings than the word "pigeon", but this doesn't mean that doves actually are "better" than pigeons in an absolute sense. We can understand that, so why couldn't the students? [/quote]
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbidae
Show your students some pictures. I think every native speaker can tell a pigeon from a dove. Essentially, some clues are the shape of the --- bill in the case of the dove, beak in the case of the pigeon - so here's more to explain already! Also their bodies are different: pigeons are sturdier built than doves, and the quality of the plumage is different.
Ultimately it's a bit the way it is with ducks: a Mandarin duck is not the same as a mallard, although they have similarities [in size, and they both have distinctive colours]. Yet nobody would mistake one for the other. Fortunately they don't have to worry about any aspects relating to the sanctification or demonisation of their natures ...
Have a nice weekend all!
Dee ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Dove vs Pigeon | Jul 12, 2014 |
They are both in the same family but different genera. Colour has nothing to do with it. There are 305 species of pigeon in the world - lots of colour variations. The differences are morphological - slight differences in body shape. Doves have slightly more pointed wings and (usually) proportionately longer tails. Doves are also smaller than pigeons and not as plump bodied.
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