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Discussion on proz.com has become severely hampered by a number of rules
Thread poster: Richard Creech
Magda Dziadosz
Magda Dziadosz  Identity Verified
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OK, then Jul 28, 2006

cbolton wrote:

I posted one of the links. No one is being misled here.
Catherine



My point was that everybody should understand that the hidden post was about a gay sargent dismissed from US Army and not about linguistic issues.

Magda


 
Richard Creech
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How is this not a "linguistic issue"? Jul 28, 2006

Magda Dziadosz wrote:


My point was that everybody should understand that the hidden post was about a gay sargent dismissed from US Army and not about linguistic issues.

Magda


Well I guess the cat is out of the bag now. But I would like to know what you consider to be a "linguistic issue" if this term does not include the employment criteria for Arabic translators. Proz.com generally allows discussion of employment issues and matters regarding translator qualification (e.g. the benefit of certification and degrees) and other matters incidental to being a translator that are not directly "linguistic" per se (e.g. what rates to charge, how to deal with clients, etc.) It seems that one particular matter has been arbitrarily selected for special treatment.

[Edited at 2006-07-28 17:13]


 
Magda Dziadosz
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As I see it Jul 28, 2006

the article discussed employment criteria for military personel and not specifically translators (Arabic or other) and that's why I see it out of scope at ProZ.com.

Magda


Richard Creech wrote:

Magda Dziadosz wrote:


My point was that everybody should understand that the hidden post was about a gay sargent dismissed from US Army and not about linguistic issues.

Magda


Well I guess the cat is out of the bag now. But I would like to know what you consider to be a "linguistic issue" if this term does not include the employment criteria for Arabic translators. Proz.com generally allows discussion of employment issues and matters regarding translator qualification (e.g. the benefit of certification and degrees) and other matters incidental to being a translator that are not directly "linguistic" per se (e.g. what rates to charge, how to deal with clients, etc.) It seems that one particular matter has been arbitrarily selected for special treatment.

[Edited at 2006-07-28 17:12]


 
Catherine Bolton
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In memoriam
Exactly Jul 28, 2006

Richard Creech wrote:

But I would like to know what you consider to be a "linguistic issue" if this term does not include the employment criteria for Arabic translators. Proz.com generally allows discussion of employment issues and matters regarding translator qualification (e.g. the benefit of certification and degrees) and other matters incidental to being a translator that are not directly "linguistic" per se (e.g. what rates to charge, how to deal with clients, etc.) It seems that one particular matter has been arbitrarily selected for special treatment.


So basically if a female translator gets turned down for a job because she's a woman, we can't talk about that.
We're talking about prejudice in our field, so I really can't see the problem. Richard didn't post a forum about gay issues in general! I could see your problem with that (though only up to a certain point).
We had loads of postings about the Italian soccer team during the World Cup, and I imagine plenty of French members weren't too happy to read that, particularly after Materazzi and Zidane had their little run-in. Nothing linguistic about that. But they were posted as OT fora.
There's your answer, Richard. (Lightbulb turns on here.) Post it as OT.
Catherine


 
Enrique Cavalitto
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Not a note about Arab translation Jul 28, 2006

Richard Creech wrote:

Magda Dziadosz wrote:


My point was that everybody should understand that the hidden post was about a gay sargent dismissed from US Army and not about linguistic issues.

Magda


Well I guess the cat is out of the bag now. But I would like to know what you consider to be a "linguistic issue" if this term does not include the employment criteria for Arabic translators. Proz.com generally allows discussion of employment issues and matters regarding translator qualification (e.g. the benefit of certification and degrees) and other matters incidental to being a translator that are not directly "linguistic" per se (e.g. what rates to charge, how to deal with clients, etc.) It seems that one particular matter has been arbitrarily selected for special treatment.

[Edited at 2006-07-28 17:13]


I read the article you quote. I deals with a Sargent who was dismissed from a military institution because of his sexual orientation. The man happens to be a linguist but it could have been an Engineer and the story would have changed very little.

The issue here are not the employment criteria for Arabic translators but the employment criteria used by this particular military institution for all its personnel, independently of their specializations.

This is by no mean an article about "Arab translation".
This is an off-topic issue and a controversial one, the rules are very clear about this.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Enrique Cavalitto
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I disagree Jul 28, 2006

cbolton wrote:

Richard didn't post a forum about gay issues in general!


In fact I understand he did so, the fact that the person is a liguist is totally irrelevant to the story, he was expelled as a militar, not as a linguist.

Enrique


 
Magda Dziadosz
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My point exactly, Enrique! Jul 28, 2006

Enrique wrote:

cbolton wrote:

Richard didn't post a forum about gay issues in general!


In fact I understand he did so, the fact that the person is a liguist is totally irrelevant to the story, he was expelled as a militar, not as a linguist.

Enrique


 
Richard Creech
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Consequences of this view of relevance Jul 28, 2006

OK, so the way a linguist is treated in his job is not properly discussed here if he would have been treated the same way if he were an engineer. So I take it that we will no longer allow discussion of the policies of paypal or moneybrokers, as they apply to both lingusits and engineers. And we won't discuss different types of computers that people use, as engineers use them too. This is simply absurd. Is the test for posting now whether or not the same thing could happen to an engineer? Th... See more
OK, so the way a linguist is treated in his job is not properly discussed here if he would have been treated the same way if he were an engineer. So I take it that we will no longer allow discussion of the policies of paypal or moneybrokers, as they apply to both lingusits and engineers. And we won't discuss different types of computers that people use, as engineers use them too. This is simply absurd. Is the test for posting now whether or not the same thing could happen to an engineer? The fact that a matter may affect engineers and the general population does not mean it does not also affect linguists, and here the connection is substantial, as much has been made over the shortage of Arabic linguists. Why would proz.com not wish to promote awareness of the full nature of this issue? Shouldn't someone who is considering going through the effort of learning Arabic be informed that he may face a serious obstacle to employment?

[Edited at 2006-07-28 17:52]
Collapse


 
Catherine Bolton
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For future reference Jul 28, 2006

Enrique wrote:

This is an off-topic issue and a controversial one, the rules are very clear about this.

Regards,
Enrique


Then I suggest you ban any and all postings about football, as that also happens to be an OT issue but quite controversial.
Catherine


 
Enrique Cavalitto
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On the role of moderators Jul 28, 2006


From our definition of scope http://www.proz.com/scope

Site users are expected to limit their site activities, postings and communications to the site's scope as defined herein. Those who use ProZ.com for other purposes will be denied access to the service, without regard to their status as paying or non-paying members.

Content posted on or via ProZ.com should be limited to the following areas:

- language services (translation, interpreting, etc.)
- language services business issues
- general business issues pertinent to site users
- language
- the ProZ.com site
- the ProZ.com community

Content not related to the above categories is not within ProZ.com's scope and will not be permitted. Postings containing content not related to the above areas will not be vetted. If already public, such postings will be removed promptly whenever encountered by moderators or staff members.

Note that not all postings in these topic areas will be permitted. Postings that are in violation of ProZ.com policies or rules will not be vetted, and if already public, will be removed whenever encountered by moderators or site staff, even if they fall within ProZ.com's scope.


Site moderators are a group of volunteers that contribute time and efforts to our community to help steer site development, assist users in using the site to maximum benefit, enforce adherence to site rules, investigate cases of abuse, and otherwise contribute to the continued maintenance and improvement of the site and community.

Adherence to the site rules is a condition for continued right to access and use the site, and as part of their responsibilities moderators have agreed to respect and enforce these rules. They do so with independence of their personal opinions about the issues being discussed.

To present ProZ.com's moderators as a group of censors, or as people who act in accordance with theit own agendas on rules enforcement in not only wrong, but also unfair.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Enrique Cavalitto
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Focus Jul 28, 2006

Richard Creech wrote:

Shouldn't someone who is considering going through the effort of learning Arabic be informed that he may face a serious obstacle to employment?


Yes, but the note quoted by you was not about that.

If an Arab linguist dies in a car crash because he was not using his seat belt, it is still a traffic issue, not a linguistic one.

Enrique


 
Richard Creech
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On the Role of Moderators Jul 28, 2006

I am grateful to those whose work makes this site possible, and am glad that there is a commitment to making this site the best that it can be. However, I feel that it is perfectly valid for the members of this site to discuss the extent to which the site is achieving its goal and whether the rules, or their application by the moderators, are truly in the best interest of the community. If we cannot do this, that is very sad indeed.

 
Richard Creech
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Through the Looking Glass Jul 28, 2006

[quote]Enrique wrote:

Richard Creech wrote:

If an Arab linguist dies in a car crash because he was not using his seat belt, it is still a traffic issue, not a linguistic one.

Enrique


Your analogy is off point, because a seat belt is not relevant to his work as a translator, but the criteria under which he will be deemed qualified to work as a translator is of central importance to those in the field.

Moreover, if an Arab linguist has a problem with sending money by moneybrokers, it is a payment problem, not a linguistic one. And therefore out of bounds on proz.com? This is discussed all the time (and rightly so, I would add).


 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
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Just asking Jul 28, 2006

Magda Dziadosz wrote:

Enrique wrote:

cbolton wrote:

Richard didn't post a forum about gay issues in general!


In fact I understand he did so, the fact that the person is a liguist is totally irrelevant to the story, he was expelled as a militar, not as a linguist.

Enrique


So, if the same thing (i.e. getting fired) had happened to say, a Spanish interpreter working for a hospital, would it still be against the rules to comment about it?

--
Dyran


 
Enrique Cavalitto
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On topic and controversial Jul 28, 2006

Richard Creech wrote:

The relevant rule currently states:

"Valid topics for discussion include language and language services (translation, interpreting, localization, subtitling, etc.), as well as business and technical issues of interest specifically to language professionals in their work. Postings which are not related to language or translation, or the business of language or translation, are not allowed. Postings which are political, religious, or otherwise controversial in nature, or that may be considered offensive by other users, will be removed without regard to the views expressed. [ For details, see the site's Definition of Scope ]"

There is a lacuna in this rule, as it does not squarely address the situation in which a topic satisfies the criteria of the first sentence (i.e. it is about "language and language services) but also falls into the ambit of the second sentence (e.g. it is "political, religious, or otherwise controversial," etc.). A matter can be both.


Please note the final statement "For details, see the site's Definition of Scope"

If you visit that page ( http://www.proz.com/scope )you will find this issue covered:

"Note that not all postings in these topic areas will be permitted. Postings that are in violation of ProZ.com policies or rules will not be vetted, and if already public, will be removed whenever encountered by moderators or site staff, even if they fall within ProZ.com's scope. "

Enrique


 
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Discussion on proz.com has become severely hampered by a number of rules






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