| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Are there limits for censorship in ProZ? Thread poster: Kunik
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tinageta wrote:
Even if some of us have grown so cynical as to accept that the world is an unjust and unfair place and there is nothing that we can do about it, it does not mean we all should embrace such an approach even in matters where it can be avoided.
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...so if this place is not designed for open discussion but only for the “correct opinions”, then probably its name should be changed.
Agnese
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I see what you mean, but again, the thread we are discussing here, along with a certain lack of freedom of expression, is raising a concern about something that was part of the monster thread, but which seems to have gone unnoticed. That is just why I posted a thread - so that people who become aware of the loss of privileges part can voice their opinions on it. I repeat, the other thread was not about WWA, but rather about how people feel about sacrificing their existing rights/privileges in or... See more I see what you mean, but again, the thread we are discussing here, along with a certain lack of freedom of expression, is raising a concern about something that was part of the monster thread, but which seems to have gone unnoticed. That is just why I posted a thread - so that people who become aware of the loss of privileges part can voice their opinions on it. I repeat, the other thread was not about WWA, but rather about how people feel about sacrificing their existing rights/privileges in order to be allowed to opt out of something. It could have been about KudoZ, the forum, the new profile format - it just happened to have to do with the WWA, because that's where the problem reared its ugly head.
If I understand correctly, Henry and the staff are working on an improved version of the WWA system, but when they will be ready to implement it, I doubt they will take into consideration issues that have not been raised. I also wanted to check with others whether it was OK with them to lose privileges just because they opted out of something new that they don't particularly like.
So, whether any of this is implemented yet is not important. It's the fact that someone seriously considered imposing this that matters. And the fact that, when concern was voiced about it, people got silenced. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov 
Ukraine
Local time: 08:44
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
...raising a concern about something that was part of the monster thread, but which seems to have gone unnoticed. That is just why I posted a thread - so that people who become aware of the loss of privileges part can voice their opinions on it.
Viktoria, I really think you should have read that huge thread before starting the new thread. The point was not unnoticed, believe me, and it was discussed thoroughly. There were all kinds of opinions and debates. Then, after everything was discussed in all details, Henry asked for a break, but you have not read the thread and you started it all over again, asking for answers and opinions which are already given in abundance.
With the energy and time you've put so far in your new postings, I believe you might have found some time to read the thread by now. And it's not late yet, by the way
| | | | | Monster thread | Jul 10, 2006 |
I did, after I spotted the one post in the monster thread that triggered mine, try to see if there were any reactions. I searched for them, but there seemed to be none in the vicinity of that particular post. As I searched, I kept reminding myself that whatever I was reading was a reaction to another post before, which in turn was also a reaction, and so forth. I just could not see the end of it...
However, I was not t... See more I did, after I spotted the one post in the monster thread that triggered mine, try to see if there were any reactions. I searched for them, but there seemed to be none in the vicinity of that particular post. As I searched, I kept reminding myself that whatever I was reading was a reaction to another post before, which in turn was also a reaction, and so forth. I just could not see the end of it...
However, I was not trying to continue the discussion locked there in another thread that was not - yet - locked, either. I really hope that's not why Henry locked my thread, that would be a pity. However, Henry or somebody who visited my thread before him - there WERE two moderators who seemed to know the monster thread quite well - could have told me why they thought it was inappropriate to continue my thread, instead of just slamming the door on my nose. They could have referred me to posts about this particular issue. Instead, one of them just kept countering my arguments, while the other stopped responding altogether.
The mystery about locked threads and deleted posts remains... And this mystery also concerns other threads on other topics that were not posted by me... ▲ Collapse
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Ford Prefect
Burkina Faso
Local time: 05:44
German to English
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tinageta wrote:
...and I will not be surprised at all if in December we will be forbidden to say Merry Christmas, as it might offend those users and members who have other beliefs and views.
Actually this has already been discussed
www.proz.com/topic/40636
| | | | | You are forbidden, actually | Jul 10, 2006 |
tinageta wrote:
I will not be surprised at all if in December we will be forbidden to say Merry Christmas, as it might offend those users and members who have other beliefs and views.
I
Those topics are usually locked. You cannot wish a Merry Christmas in here, although last Christmas some moderators allowed it in some fora.
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 07:44
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
I'm volunteering, getting nothing for beeing a moderator here.
I have my own work to do - and this is so much at the moment, that I hardly have tgime to read thoroughly all the postst. And I did not read the "monster thread".
Nevertheless, what I see here is the lack of understanding on your side. Almost any of the poster sees her/his right to post and considers the fact, that some of her/his postings might be "censored" (a bad word here, but let it be) as a dictature. But please put... See more I'm volunteering, getting nothing for beeing a moderator here.
I have my own work to do - and this is so much at the moment, that I hardly have tgime to read thoroughly all the postst. And I did not read the "monster thread".
Nevertheless, what I see here is the lack of understanding on your side. Almost any of the poster sees her/his right to post and considers the fact, that some of her/his postings might be "censored" (a bad word here, but let it be) as a dictature. But please put yourself on the other side. If you wanna wish Merry Christmas have you ever considered, that there might be people on the earth, who do not have/like Chistmas? If you express your view in a way an European will do, are you sure, this will not hurt the view of a Japaneese?
When do you have children, do you allow them to do/say everything they want? Would you let your son say to his girlfriend "bi.tch"? Is this OK? And how do you want to know, what people in a country you possibly never heard of understand in your wording?
Controversial postings in a group of friends may lead to a quarrel, but among strangers this may cause war.
Tolerance must not necessarilly mean you are allowed to post here everything you wish. Possibly it is you who are intolerant against the site.
So please consider this in your criticism.
Regards
Jerzy
PS
Please don't feel offended by my wording, which may be not perfect chosen due to my lmited English knowledge. I do not wish to offend anyone. I*m for tolerance everytime and everywhere - but for well understood tolerance.
Edited due to typo: changed "luck" into "lack"
[Edited at 2006-07-10 11:27] ▲ Collapse
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Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 07:44
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
| Oh, the answer is very simply now | Jul 10, 2006 |
Put in a very short und simplified way: ProZ is a lingustics site - so on-topic is everything what is conected with llingustic and our profession. Everything else is considered off-topic and can (but not must) be permitted.
This is not about no-no's or similar - it is about a tolerance in a community with members along the whoile world.
And I congratulate you, if you can manage it so far, that anyone posts and says everything he wants without any - as you say - "censorship" an... See more Put in a very short und simplified way: ProZ is a lingustics site - so on-topic is everything what is conected with llingustic and our profession. Everything else is considered off-topic and can (but not must) be permitted.
This is not about no-no's or similar - it is about a tolerance in a community with members along the whoile world.
And I congratulate you, if you can manage it so far, that anyone posts and says everything he wants without any - as you say - "censorship" and the community still lives in freedom and friendship. This would be really a challenge - but I wonder if this will ever be possible in this world.
Regards
Jerzy
PS
Please consider my views stated here as my personal views, not representing the views of other Moderators or ProZ in any way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ford Prefect
Burkina Faso
Local time: 05:44
German to English
+ ...
| Anything you ever say might offend someone. | Jul 10, 2006 |
If you wanna wish Merry Christmas have you ever considered, that there might be people on the earth, who do not have/like Chistmas? If you express your view in a way an European will do, are you sure, this will not hurt the view of a Japaneese?
If you want to say "Hello". have you ever considered there might be people who do not have/like the word "hello"? If you express your greeting in a way a European would do, are you sure this will not hurt a Japanese? The Japanese may expect a longer, more formal greeting than "hello" or "hi there ol' buddy". OTOH maybe that is an old stereotype. Who knows.
There are books and books written about potential greetings faux-pas. The fact is, anyone who takes offence at such a faux-pas made in good faith is doing so gratuitously.
[Edited at 2006-07-10 11:41]
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James Visanji DipTrans PhD wrote: If you wanna wish Merry Christmas have you ever considered, that there might be people on the earth, who do not have/like Chistmas? If you express your view in a way an European will do, are you sure, this will not hurt the view of a Japaneese? If you want to say "Hello". have you ever considered there might be people who do not have/like the word "hello"? The fact is, anyone who takes offence at such a faux-pas made in good faith is doing so gratuitously. [Edited at 2006-07-10 11:41]
...and s/he her/himself is being intolerant, thus goes against the grain!
By the way, I spell my name with a K. Should I take the necessary steps in court to change it so you don't find the cultural twist on my name offensive?
[Edited at 2006-07-10 11:45]
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Germany
Local time: 07:44
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
| Exactly - so think twice before you post | Jul 10, 2006 |
And remember, that it is much easier to explain feelings in spoken language and any missunderstanding in such situation can be settled quite easy (sometimes, but sometimes even then it is hard). When you write something, the reader is able to reread your wording again and again, looking behind the letters and searching for possible meanigs, which are either not there of if they are, they were not intended by you.
What I´m trying to say is, that this is no "censorship", but "self de... See more And remember, that it is much easier to explain feelings in spoken language and any missunderstanding in such situation can be settled quite easy (sometimes, but sometimes even then it is hard). When you write something, the reader is able to reread your wording again and again, looking behind the letters and searching for possible meanigs, which are either not there of if they are, they were not intended by you.
What I´m trying to say is, that this is no "censorship", but "self defence". If we said we do not discuss politics here (which is a very wise rule IMO), so we do not start congratulating the next elected pope. I hope this is clear and you can understand the reasons.
I hope I made my point of view clear.
Thank you for your understanding.
Regards
Jerzy ▲ Collapse
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What were the reasons for locking the mentioned threads and deleting posts?
As far as I know - and I do, as I participated in both and I posted one - nobody wished merry Christmas to nobody, nobody expressed any political views, the topic was not redundant even if it was conveniently interpreted as such by those who have authority over what is and what isn't posted/locked/deleted.
May I then ask what is wrong with those threads/posts, other than they are not necessaril... See more What were the reasons for locking the mentioned threads and deleting posts?
As far as I know - and I do, as I participated in both and I posted one - nobody wished merry Christmas to nobody, nobody expressed any political views, the topic was not redundant even if it was conveniently interpreted as such by those who have authority over what is and what isn't posted/locked/deleted.
May I then ask what is wrong with those threads/posts, other than they are not necessarily serving the interest of ProZ moderators/staff? Giving an opinion, as long as it's not against the rules, is no crime. Saying that one feels like puking is not even an opinion, it's a mere statement of how one feels, and it was very honest. Unless maybe saying that one feels like puking is culturally unacceptable?
By the way, for the Orthodox Jewish, a woman is supposed to shave her head and wear a wig. I have my real hair. Am I offending the Jewish Orthodox members of the site? For certain muslims (the strict ones), for a woman to speak in public is considered a punishable crime. Am I disrespecting muslims by participating in this forum?
I really don't see what you are trying to say. Jerzy, I know you are a decent guy and I personally have nothing against you, so please don't be offended. I just really think you are saying what you say because defending the interests of the site is most likely part of the job description for moderators. Do correct me if I'm wrong - and maybe explain your arguments if there is something I missed.
I just wanted to add about self-defense... How is it self-defense to lock/delete posts simply because someone asks for opinions of site members on something that is outrageous? Is that really what an attack/assault is? I don't remember attacking anyone, or anybody else attacking anyone - can you refresh my memory?
[Edited at 2006-07-10 12:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks, Victor | Jul 10, 2006 |
Victor Dewsbery wrote:
There is a fine line between fair and unfair criticism, and I personally feel that this line has sometimes been crossed in anger.
In the thread about "freelancer WWA" (the one with 50+ pages) there was some criticism that I felt was fair and on-topic, i.e. saying that this feature, at least as implemented, was felt to be unhelpful and counter-productive. I was one of the people who expressed this criticism.
Eventually, the site staff took the point and suspended the feature. Henry asked us to suspend further comments on this feature until the site staff had something practical to suggest. I am not sure that I will be happy with the new suggestion when it comes, but I think that Henry's request is reasonable and sensible - it is entirely unproductive to argue about what might be.
That's exactly it, Victor. Thanks.
I am locking this thread.
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