| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Rate discussions not allowed in ProZ forums? Thread poster: Ana Cuesta
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Fred Neild (X) 
English to Spanish
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| Getting established forum | Jan 25, 2006 |
Hi Ana,
Note that I have only mentioned the Getting Established forum where beginners are usually not aware of antitrust laws.
Fred
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 16:39
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Combination context | Jan 25, 2006 |
Sara is raising a point and I think I have failed to get into detail here, so mea culpa.
If rates are requested in the language forums, I can see that being more realistic.
Let me explain: I know, sadly, that I will never command the sort of rates Sara gets. Why is that? Easy. We may be equally good at our work, but she has a different market to mine.
I work into English, from Italian, and I specialize in editorial work. I do have a couple of customers who appreciate the qualit... See more Sara is raising a point and I think I have failed to get into detail here, so mea culpa.
If rates are requested in the language forums, I can see that being more realistic.
Let me explain: I know, sadly, that I will never command the sort of rates Sara gets. Why is that? Easy. We may be equally good at our work, but she has a different market to mine.
I work into English, from Italian, and I specialize in editorial work. I do have a couple of customers who appreciate the quality of what I do, and pay a wee bit more. But I can honestly say that last year I added a euro to my price per page (1500 keystrokes) and I lost almost all my old customers. Luckily I have new ones who have rolled in at the new rate, but I also know that the lovely books I translated last year would have been done by someone else if I had insisted on charging what some colleagues suggested.
That was my decision though. I preferred to work in my field and see the results of my toils in hard copy. I enjoy that kind of translation and feel comfortable with it, so lower stress levels.
It would be stressful if they were REALLY BADLY paid, though.
All I can do is say how I reason through my decisions and say that I have become philosophical about some things.
We are all in the same trade, but the language and specialisation differences are fundamental.
Ana, if I understood correctly, you would prefer to see the rates abolished from profiles. I agree.
I also have no problem with the rates issue in general, I am simply not happy with public posting of what people should charge, which is what the poster in the other forum was asking people to do. Perhaps I was not specific in my request and if so, I apologise for causing confusion.
Cheers folkZ
Angela
Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote:
One example of a thread that was useful to me in the French forum involved a newbie asking for rates for advertising slogans.
Sara ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A marketing issue | Jan 25, 2006 |
Angela Arnone wrote:
Ana, if I understood correctly, you would prefer to see the rates abolished from profiles. I agree.
A very wise person I know (who works in B to B services like us) once told me that his golden rule is "never put a sticker price" on your services.
I have since stopped doing this and now work only on a quote by quote basis. This increases the level of personalization (and perception of this by the customer) and can help lead to higher rates, IMO.
It would be interesting to see if other members feel publishing rates in their profiles is a good idea.
Maybe the site could then "steer" or "recommend" that members do not publish rates. Or would that be violating antitrust laws?
That last part was a joke, lest I offend anyone
Sara
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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| Do away with all these | Jan 25, 2006 |
Ana Cuesta wrote:
Aren't my rates publicly visible on my profile? (as an option implemented by the site) Isn't an aggregated statistics of rates split by language pair publicly available on the site? Don't outsources mention prices as they wish every single day in the job board, some even adding "qualifying" comments to them?
Hi Ana,
Illegal or not, I would actually do away with all these, since I believe they all work against us.
Fred
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Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
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Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote: Maybe the site could then "steer" or "recommend" that members do not publish rates. Or would that be violating antitrust laws?
Fully agree.
Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote: That last part was a joke, lest I offend anyone Sara
Not funny
Fred
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 16:39
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| You see! We are on the same wavelength! | Jan 25, 2006 |
I have done that too - even the same customer gets a different rate per job and they start to understand the complexities of the trade.
Maybe I shouldn't say this but I even did some wine labels and I quoted 3 bottles of DOC per label ... and my name on their website. In financial terms I got the best deal! Free advertising non-stop and some cracking booze!
At the moment, I'm negotiating a deal with a Sicilian cheese exporter. Yum.
Angela
PS - I'm not adding any m... See more I have done that too - even the same customer gets a different rate per job and they start to understand the complexities of the trade.
Maybe I shouldn't say this but I even did some wine labels and I quoted 3 bottles of DOC per label ... and my name on their website. In financial terms I got the best deal! Free advertising non-stop and some cracking booze!
At the moment, I'm negotiating a deal with a Sicilian cheese exporter. Yum.
Angela
PS - I'm not adding any more smileys, but please everyone, I am smiling and friendly, like my photo... sometimes hasty messages sound unfriendly, but it's unintentional.
Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote: I have since stopped doing this and now work only on a quote by quote basis. This increases the level of personalization (and perception of this by the customer) and can help lead to higher rates, IMO. It would be interesting to see if other members feel publishing rates in their profiles is a good idea. Maybe the site could then "steer" or "recommend" that members do not publish rates. Or would that be violating antitrust laws? That last part was a joke, lest I offend anyone Sara
[Edited at 2006-01-25 14:17] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Joke of the thread | Jan 25, 2006 |
Angela Arnone wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't say this but I even did some wine labels and I quoted 3 bottles of DOC per label ... and my name on their website. In financial terms I got the best deal!
I knew I would become the joke of the thread
What I am trying to say is that we only have to be more careful with our wording and the Getting Established forum is a great opportunity for moderators to build awareness of new translators.
Otherwise, if we eventually, someday, somehow, are able to raise standards at Proz.com, in a general manner, we will be accused of who knows what...
Fred
[Edited at 2006-01-25 14:27]
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 16:39
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| Fred, you are not a joke in the least ... you made a very valid argument! | Jan 25, 2006 |
We do need to be careful of how things are expressed.
Also, I think you have caught the spirit of Getting Established exactly and I'll also say that as a moderator I read all the threads but I try to keep a very low profile because I like to see all the different advice that comes up.
It's a forum where there is hardly any controversy (and perhaps I'm spoiled in that respect and that's why I recommended avoiding open rates discussion) and the generosity of old hands is unbelie... See more We do need to be careful of how things are expressed.
Also, I think you have caught the spirit of Getting Established exactly and I'll also say that as a moderator I read all the threads but I try to keep a very low profile because I like to see all the different advice that comes up.
It's a forum where there is hardly any controversy (and perhaps I'm spoiled in that respect and that's why I recommended avoiding open rates discussion) and the generosity of old hands is unbelievable ... people are really nice about helping new translators.
Ciao
Angela
Fred Neild wrote: I knew I would become the joke of the thread What I am trying to say is that we only have to be more careful with our wording and the Getting Established forum is a great opportunity for moderators to build awareness of new translators. Otherwise, if we eventually, someday, somehow, are able to raise standards at Proz.com, in a general manner, we will be accused of who knows what... Fred [Edited at 2006-01-25 14:27] ▲ Collapse
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Lakshmi Iyer
France
Local time: 16:39
French to English
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| Let's keep discussing rates | Jan 25, 2006 |
Personally, I find all the rates discussions extremely interesting and I'm not sure it's necessarily a good idea to do away with any mention of rates. Although rates on member profiles obviously vary enormously, they still give people at least some sort of ballpark figure, which can be extremely useful when you're starting out. Rates are an absolutely fundamental aspect of our business, as some of you have already pointed out, and I think it'd be a pity to just sweep the issue under the carpet ... See more Personally, I find all the rates discussions extremely interesting and I'm not sure it's necessarily a good idea to do away with any mention of rates. Although rates on member profiles obviously vary enormously, they still give people at least some sort of ballpark figure, which can be extremely useful when you're starting out. Rates are an absolutely fundamental aspect of our business, as some of you have already pointed out, and I think it'd be a pity to just sweep the issue under the carpet - isn't that what a no-rates rule would amount to?
Yes, some of the discussions do get a little heated and I sympathise with the moderators, who do a wonderful job of steering their way through often choppy waters. But, controversy aside, I believe discussing rates is one of the best possible ways to spread awareness of what constitutes an acceptable rate (notwithstanding market and language combination variations).
Sara mentioned how a discussion about rates for advertising slogans helped her set a higher rate, and I'm sure she's far from being the only one who's benefited from these discussions. I know I certainly have - I can't help remembering how hard I found it to get any information at all until I happened on this site. Which is why I honestly believe we should let things stand: perhaps the site could simply make it optional for members to display rates, rather than ruling them out altogether.
All the best,
Kaveri ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 16:39
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Optional display of rates already in place | Jan 25, 2006 |
Kaveri wrote:
... Which is why I honestly believe we should let things stand: perhaps the site could simply make it optional for members to display rates, rather than ruling them out altogether.
Hi Kaveri,
The optional display of rates in one's profile is in place already. When you go to your profile, you should see a clickable feature called "Toggle rates visibility" underneath your rates table (provided you entered your rates in the first place). Clicking on the little question mark right next to it provides the following info:
"Visibility throughout the site
If you choose for your rates to be visible, potential clients will see your rates in these places:
- When searching for translators in the ProZ.com directory
- When viewing your Profile
- After posting a job (a list of the best matching Platinum translators is returned)
Emails
If rates are visible
- WILL receive emails for jobs without specific pricing
- WILL receive emails for jobs ONLY within your rate range when prices are specified
If rates are NOT visible
- MIGHT receive emails for jobs without specific pricing (non-paying members receive notification for a percentage of jobs, decided at random. Platinum members receive all notifications.)
- WILL receive emails for jobs with specific pricing
If rates are not entered
- WILL NOT receive emails for jobs without specific pricing
- WILL receive emails for jobs with specific pricing
Bidding
If rates are visible
- Can bid anywhere within your range
If rates are NOT visible
- Can bid anywhere within your range
If rates are not entered
- Can bid only within limited range (decided by the rates entered by other translators)."
Best,
Steffen
[Edited at 2006-01-25 16:53]
| | | | | My humble opinion | Jan 25, 2006 |
My humble opinion is that, if someone who is starting up has absolutely no idea what to charge, then we should be helpful rather than officious. I have seen useful information imparted in various ways. One way is to take a look at the person's profile, to see what they have written they are charging, and then advise them to increase their rates a little bit, double their rates, or whatever. I have seen this done many times, and seldom seen it objected to, even though the advice to "double you... See more My humble opinion is that, if someone who is starting up has absolutely no idea what to charge, then we should be helpful rather than officious. I have seen useful information imparted in various ways. One way is to take a look at the person's profile, to see what they have written they are charging, and then advise them to increase their rates a little bit, double their rates, or whatever. I have seen this done many times, and seldom seen it objected to, even though the advice to "double your rates" is quite specific, since anyone can look at that person's profile to see what they are charging.
Personally, I always answer the query in private. However, I consider it most unhelpful to tell a beginner to work out what they need to earn per hour, starting from the annual income they intend to earn, and their intended standard of living. I hate this advice being given to beginners, because, although it is perfectly true, and the way that experienced business people reach a conclusion about their rates, I consider it far more helpful at this stage to suggest to the person a good average that they might expect to earn in that language pair. As I said, I always do this by private e-mail, but it assumes that the person has first drawn my attention to their desire to be informed, by raising the issue in a public forum.
Astrid ▲ Collapse
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 11:39
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
I have no problems with threads about rates provided no outsourcer is named directly or indirectly (and the remaining forum rules are respected, of course).
Regards,
Enrique
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Angela Arnone
Local time: 16:39
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| After reading the posts ... | Jan 27, 2006 |
I've come to the conclusion that there has been a basic misunderstanding.
My request on Getting Established was for people to write privately to the poster regarding their own rates.
I have never asked, and wouldn't ever dream of asking people not to discuss rates generally.
Most of the posts here seem to be on that wavelength, if you don't mind me saying.
Take care all
Angela
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