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Andrew Morris of the ProZ.com team is airing personal views on a variety of subjects (Staff: 'yes')
Thread poster: Fiona Grace Peterson

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 04:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Andrew, + more ideas for your project Apr 22

Andrew Morris wrote:
Fair enough, Samuel and Kay. ... The point about benefiting is well argued.


Just for the record: I (Samuel) am not arguing the "benefiting" case. I don't think you should go out of your way to ensure that you do not benefit (-: I'm not bothered that your freelance business might "benefit". As long as you're not seen to abuse your role specifically to drive traffic to your freelance profile, I don't think there's issue. So far, I haven't seen you do that. You're a freelancer, and so obviously you're going to mention that and you're going to argue some points from your position as a freelancer. Unlike some (two, I believe), I don't see the difficulty.

John Fossey wrote:
If site staff do not want Andrew's posts to be viewed as speaking on their behalf, then his posts should have a disclaimer (as is done in many publications) along the lines of: "The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or view of site staff."


1. That (the disclaimer) would be a good idea.

2. Another idea that I had was for Andrew to use a subject line tag. Since these types of threads are typically started by Andrew, he could add [Andrew asks] to the thread title, as if it's a column. This would make it clear when looking at the list of threads that such a thread is of the Andrew trolling type. I suspect that once Andrew starts posting regular "[Andrew asks]" threads, he'll generate a following of regular readers (and respondents), and the subject line tag will help identify his posts in the thread list.

3. Yet another idea would be to create a subforum specifically for op-eds and columns, called e.g. Op-eds and columns, here. Threads to this subforum would appear in the "Most recent posts" list. This would be a subforum in which anyone can post a reply, but only specific people can start a thread. (Andrew would be such a person, as well as anyone who registers their intention to regularly post opinion pieces aimed at discussion and generating feedback.)


[Edited at 2019-04-22 19:35 GMT]


Chris S
Matthias Brombach
Jo Macdonald
Sheila Wilson
MollyRose
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:04
Member (2012)
French to English
Liking your sense of humour Apr 22

Samuel Murray wrote:

Andrew Morris wrote:
Fair enough, Samuel and Kay. ... The point about benefiting is well argued.


Just for the record: I (Samuel) am not arguing the "benefiting" case. I don't think you should go out of your way to ensure that you do not benefit (-: I'm not bothered that your freelance business might "benefit". As long as you're not seen to abuse your role specifically to drive traffic to your freelance profile, I don't think there's issue. So far, I haven't seen you do that. You're a freelancer, and so obviously you're going to mention that and you're going to argue some points from your position as a freelancer. Unlike some (two, I believe), I don't see the difficulty.

John Fossey wrote:
If site staff do not want Andrew's posts to be viewed as speaking on their behalf, then his posts should have a disclaimer (as is done in many publications) along the lines of: "The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinion or view of site staff."


1. That (the disclaimer) would be a good idea.

2. Another idea that I had was for Andrew to use a subject line tag. Since these types of threads are typically started by Andrew, he could add [Andrew asks] to the thread title, as if it's a column. This would make it clear when looking at the list of threads that such a thread is of the Andrew trolling type. I suspect that once Andrew starts posting regular "[Andrew asks]" threads, he'll generate a following of regular readers (and respondents), and the subject line tag will help identify his posts in the thread list.

3. Yet another idea would be to create a subforum specifically for op-eds and columns, called e.g. Op-eds and columns, here. Threads to this subforum would appear in the "Most recent posts" list. This would be a subforum in which anyone can post a reply, but only specific people can start a thread. (Andrew would be such a person, as well as anyone who registers their intention to regularly post opinion pieces aimed at discussion and generating feedback.)


[Edited at 2019-04-22 19:35 GMT]


I assume it's a joke, as it's laughable to suggest that a forum for so-called language experts would have to take such bizarre steps.


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 04:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
It's no joke Apr 22

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
2. Another idea that I had was for Andrew to use a subject line tag. Since these types of threads are typically started by Andrew, he could add [Andrew asks] to the thread title, as if it's a column.
3. Yet another idea would be to create a subforum specifically for op-eds and columns, called e.g. Op-eds and columns, here.

I assume it's a joke, as it's laughable to suggest that a forum for so-called language experts would have to take such bizarre steps.


No, I was being serious. I'm trying to think (along with others here) about ways in which Andrew's role can be made a success.

Edited: Googling tells me that these days the word "troll" means something far more malicious than it did in my day, so I edited the word out of my post.

[Edited at 2019-04-22 20:13 GMT]


 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:04
Member (2012)
French to English
Ok Apr 22

Samuel Murray wrote:

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
2. Another idea that I had was for Andrew to use a subject line tag. Since these types of threads are typically started by Andrew, he could add [Andrew asks] to the thread title, as if it's a column.
3. Yet another idea would be to create a subforum specifically for op-eds and columns, called e.g. Op-eds and columns, here.

I assume it's a joke, as it's laughable to suggest that a forum for so-called language experts would have to take such bizarre steps.


No, I was being serious. I'm trying to think (along with others here) about ways in which Andrew's role can be made a success. It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Andrew's role is to become an officially sanctioned resident troll, and I think that there is an opportunity for such a role to work.


You're just being offensive and getting away with it.

That makes me sad.


Tom in London
 

Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:04
German to English
+ ...
this is sort of interesting Apr 23

I've never paid attention to whether someone posting was site staff or a member (paying or otherwise). If there was an official announcement, that tended to stand out as such. if opinion, I assumed it was a personal one as member. How is it usually done here?
What about "Wearing my member hat" for a personal opinion post as member?


Liviu-Lee Roth
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
officially sanctioned resident troll??? Apr 23

This is hilarious.

I have zero problem with Samuel's posts as he at least appears to reflect and to want to find solutions, even if I disagree with his conclusions. I've always said it's fine to attack ideas and issues, not people.

But calling what I have been doing "trolling" is ludicrous. And yes, googling such a word is never a bad idea before using it in a public forum.

I googled it myself, and found this: "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who s
... See more
This is hilarious.

I have zero problem with Samuel's posts as he at least appears to reflect and to want to find solutions, even if I disagree with his conclusions. I've always said it's fine to attack ideas and issues, not people.

But calling what I have been doing "trolling" is ludicrous. And yes, googling such a word is never a bad idea before using it in a public forum.

I googled it myself, and found this: "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community". (Wikipedia)

I never set out to sow discord in the slightest. All my posts are about issues, not people. What is true is that I was taken aback to discover a culture of open aggression (NOT all people, but some very obvious examples), and responded accordingly, in what I saw as legitimate self-defence.

If anyone can find a single example of " inflammatory and digressive" material in my actual posts (as opposed to one or two comments), I will personally treat them to dinner at a restaurant of their choice.

As for Maxi's suggestion, again, why not? Coupled with the earlier post about a disclaimer, that should dispel any last remaining doubts. At least, one would hope so, but you never quite know...
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Jo Macdonald  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2005)
Italian to English
+ ...
Imo Apr 23

Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
Curious to know what others think.


I think having someone on here who gives the people we're paying a bit of a more human, communicative, friendly face is a great idea. Perhaps someone who is a little more available to listen to problems too.

Fiona, I think you were right to raise your concerns but also agree with Andrew that a simple private Email would have been a less "in your face" way of doing so.

I think something along the lines of what Samuel is suggesting might work well and help clear up confusion.

Andrew, there are a few people on here who just love to push buttons, presumably having nothing better to do with their time. My advice would be not to over-react to this because at the end of the day it's not their initial action that's so important but whatever re-action they manage to provoke that makes it so.
Btw, Fiona is certainly not one of these imo, so I wouldn't take her post as a slap in the chops.

Keep up the good work.


Andrew Morris
Elizabeth Tamblin
Sheila Wilson
Samuel Murray
Teresa Borges
Gareth Callagy
MollyRose
 

Andrew Morris

Posted via
ProZ.com Mobile



ProZ.com team
There is hope Apr 23

That’s one of the nicest replies I’ve seen since my arrival. And wise advice too.

For my part, I am always happy to mend fences with whoever shows willing. I personally can’t abide conflict.

Much appreciated Jo.


 

Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 04:04
Member
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Email Apr 23

Jo Macdonald wrote:

Fiona, I think you were right to raise your concerns but also agree with Andrew that a simple private Email would have been a less "in your face" way of doing so.



I didn't write an email because I wanted to know if my concerns were purely personal or shared by the wider community.


Kay Denney
Andrew Morris
Robert Forstag
 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 04:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
I do not call you a troll, Andrew Apr 23

Andrew Morris wrote:
Officially sanctioned resident troll???


I edited out the word "troll" several hours before you replied. The reason I edited it out was because I realised (partly thanks to Elizabeth's response) that I had made a mistake and that I did not, in fact, consider you a troll (either in the Jargon File sense or the Wikipedia sense) and that using the phrase "resident troll" (however humorous) is inappropriate in this case. So I'm wondering, why then did you choose to devote an entire reply of several paragraphs to something that you knew was not part of the conversation? Is this the modern idea of netiquette?



[Edited at 2019-04-23 08:55 GMT]


Andrew Morris
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:04
Member (2012)
French to English
? Apr 23

Samuel Murray wrote:

Andrew Morris wrote:
I googled it myself, and found this: "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community". (Wikipedia)


That appears to be the modern definition, yes. I did not mean it like that.

I'm an "older" internet user and the definition that applies to my use of the word comes not from Wikipedia but from the Jargon file, "to utter a posting ... designed to attract predictable responses." Such a posting can be "inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic" but it doesn't have to be. There are other, more intelligent, less offensive ways to attract predictable responses. I do not personally consider "inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic" to be part of the definition of "troll", but I do now realise that the word has since come to mean something far more malicious than it used to mean. So, I apologise for using the word. I'm not sure what other word to use instead.

But, to return to the topic, is this an accurate description of your role, i.e. to "post threads that are designed to generate predictable responses"? If not, then perhaps you can tell us what is your role.


Did you not read the message we were all sent on 8 April, which described Andrew's role?

As for the definition of troll - ah yes, the good old days, when trolls were nice. I don't think so! But one really should stay up-to-date with modern terminology as a translator, to avoid such gaffes.

Edited to add: But I see that you have now edited your post to erase most of it completely.

[Edited at 2019-04-23 09:03 GMT]


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 04:04
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
What did I miss here? Apr 23

I'm just reading this thread.

11 days ago Andrew Morris was a site staff and the owner of a translation agency (Morris Traduction in France) with 2 different profiles.

Whooah 4

And now I see he also has a translator/freelancer profile....


Andrew Morris
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
A tale of two profiles Apr 23

@Katalin

Correction, until I joined the ProZ.com staff on a temporary basis, I only ever had one profile: as a freelance translator.

Nevertheless, from the start "Morris Traduction" has been the registered name of my business. That's just what happens when you set up a limited company: you choose a name.

I have been outsourcing part of my direct client work for many years (about 7), and so received some mentions on the BlueBoard, which referred to that n
... See more
@Katalin

Correction, until I joined the ProZ.com staff on a temporary basis, I only ever had one profile: as a freelance translator.

Nevertheless, from the start "Morris Traduction" has been the registered name of my business. That's just what happens when you set up a limited company: you choose a name.

I have been outsourcing part of my direct client work for many years (about 7), and so received some mentions on the BlueBoard, which referred to that name. But it was never a separate profile as far as I am aware. The two (my translator profile and my company) are one and the same, as suggested by your screenshot, which contains both.

I changed the photo recently, that's all...

I am impressed by your vigilance, however!
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Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
When is a troll not a troll? Apr 23

@Samuel, I did not mean to cause offence. I saw the word used multiple times (for "humorous effect" perhaps?) in various posts you wrote. And the bit about "officially sanctioned" was certainly there when I wrote my comment, as I cut and pasted it from your post: it's too long and ungainly a phrase to have to go to the trouble of typing it out...

I wasn't to know you were using a dictionary from 1991 or whenever... It's a pretty common word these days and one that 99.99999999999999%
... See more
@Samuel, I did not mean to cause offence. I saw the word used multiple times (for "humorous effect" perhaps?) in various posts you wrote. And the bit about "officially sanctioned" was certainly there when I wrote my comment, as I cut and pasted it from your post: it's too long and ungainly a phrase to have to go to the trouble of typing it out...

I wasn't to know you were using a dictionary from 1991 or whenever... It's a pretty common word these days and one that 99.99999999999999% of language-aware people understand to be fundamentally negative.

I have said above that I welcomed your reflections. But that repeated use of the word was, ironically enough, rather inflammatory.

Let's move on. If "netiquette" is now the worst of our problems, then we have already made much progress.
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Samuel Murray
 

ahartje
Portugal
Local time: 03:04
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
I support a certain "separation of powers" Apr 23

in the way Fiona started this thread by questioning the mixture of Proz collaborators and members: Proz collaborators for admin and control functions on one side, Proz members participating in forums und threads on the other side. What is wrong with that?
.


 
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