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Locked threads disappear from the "Recent Translation forum posts" page
Thread poster: Jean Dimitriadis

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 10:50
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Concept of the early days Apr 29

Jared Tabor wrote:

Hi all,

It is pretty simple. Site staff exercise editorial control over threads that appear on the home page (connected with the list of recent topics). Here is an FAQ I mentioned the other day on the subject: https://www.proz.com/faq/3094#3094

Site staff and moderators also edit the titles of forum threads when needed, in order to make sure they are descriptive of the content of the thread as possible.

In addition, when someone brings up freedom of speech (thanks Mirko!) I feel compelled to point out, as most of you know, that ProZ.com is not a "free speech zone". That is, one cannot simply say whatever one wishes on the ProZ.com forums-- there are plenty of other places out there for that. Nor should one assume the forums can be used as a platform to advertise one's opinions without restriction, for example. The forums have a limited scope, and rules that govern them. Here's an FAQ about how that works here: https://www.proz.com/faq/5651#5651

Jared


I wish you Jared and Henry and all the site staff were able to think like in the early days of proz.com.
I cannot believe that the main concept and aim of the freshly established Proz were the same as now.


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:50
Member
English to Italian
No, not "simple" at all Apr 29

Jared Tabor wrote:

Hi all,

It is pretty simple. Site staff exercise editorial control over threads that appear on the home page (connected with the list of recent topics). Here is an FAQ I mentioned the other day on the subject: https://www.proz.com/faq/3094#3094


And once again, the "homepage" mentioned in the FAQ rule you keep quoting is not the "most recent posts" section of the fora, which should just list the threads where users posted more recently. "Editorial control" to decide what is to be considered "most recent" simply makes no sense whatsoever. So, either you are utterly wrong, or a group of language professionals can't read and understand what you keep quoting...

Site staff and moderators also edit the titles of forum threads when needed, in order to make sure they are descriptive of the content of the thread as possible.


Yeah, sure... happens all the time, right? But that's kind of beside the point, and only hints at a... rather peculiar "interest" in some posts rather than others...

In addition, when someone brings up freedom of speech (thanks Mirko!) I feel compelled to point out, as most of you know, that ProZ.com is not a "free speech zone". That is, one cannot simply say whatever one wishes on the ProZ.com forums-- there are plenty of other places out there for that. Nor should one assume the forums can be used as a platform to advertise one's opinions without restriction, for example. The forums have a limited scope, and rules that govern them. Here's an FAQ about how that works here: https://www.proz.com/faq/5651#5651[/quote]

You're most welcome Jared. Aaaand... so what? I gave the article you linked for granted when mentioning "freedom of speech". Or do you really think I was talking about the "freedom" to insult people or break the rules?! (Which I think I never really did, by the way...). I just want to be able to discuss things with other users of the site WITHIN the rules, and WITHOUT others trying to arbitrarily hinder and smother the discussion. THAT is the point.

In other words, who said anything "sanctionable" here? And if someone did, objectively breaking some of "the rules", then hide their post/ask them to edit it, as you usually do, instead of locking/hiding whole threads. I've seen flame threads rage on for days on end in the past, with people insulting each other, and lo and behold, no thread locking, no thread hiding... So what are you talking about, exactly?

Again, the point is you are just arbitrarily hindering and smothering discussions you don't like*, thing which I believe is not stated in the mission statement or in any site rule.

* Just a P.S. "rather than actually listening to what people have to say, because at the end of day I believe no one here is on a crusade against a site that offers a service we are paying for... but, without presuming to speak for others, I believe many of us (including me) would only like to see things improve, for the site, for us and for our profession at large"

[Edited at 2019-04-29 21:51 GMT]

Robert Forstag
 

Jared Tabor
Local time: 06:50
SITE STAFF
The good old days Apr 29

Hi Katalin,

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

I wish you Jared and Henry and all the site staff were able to think like in the early days of proz.com.


This vote of confidence in my, Henry's, and all the site staff's capabilities warms my heart.

Seriously speaking, though, ProZ.com's mission has been around for the last 20 years, and site staff have it at the forefront when they decide to do anything. The site's scope, rules, and everything else I mention in the post you quote grew out of applying the mission, in order to make the forums, in this instance, a positive, results-oriented environment.



I cannot believe that the main concept and aim of the freshly established Proz were the same as now.


Try to believe. Of course, some things have changed over the past two decades, as things do, and should. Others have not.

With regards to the forums, the concept has never changed. The main purpose of the forums is to allow people to ask for, and to receive, help related to translation and the translation business.


Jared


 

Jared Tabor
Local time: 06:50
SITE STAFF
It is much simpler than you are making it out to be Apr 29

Hi Mirko,

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
And once again, the "homepage" mentioned in the FAQ rule you keep quoting is not the "most recent posts" section of the fora, which should just list the threads where users posted more recently. "Editorial control" to decide what is to be considered "most recent" simply makes no sense whatsoever. So, either you are utterly wrong, or a group of language professionals can't read and understand what you keep quoting...


I will update the cited FAQ to clarify that the list of recent forum posts is closely related to the list of recent forum posts shown on the home page, and to clarify that locked threads and threads which site staff choose not to feature on the site will not necessarily appear in these places.



Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Site staff and moderators also edit the titles of forum threads when needed, in order to make sure they are descriptive of the content of the thread as possible.


Yeah, sure... happens all the time, right?


Several times a day.


Mirko Mainardi wrote:
But that's kind of beside the point, and only hints at a... rather peculiar "interest" in some posts rather than others...


Incorrect.


Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Again, the point is you are just arbitrarily hindering and smothering discussions you don't like*, thing which I believe is not stated in the mission statement or in any site rule.

* Just a P.S. "rather than actually listening to what people have to say, because at the end of day I believe no one here is on a crusade against a site that offers a service we are paying for... but, without presuming to speak for others, I believe many of us (including me) would only like to see things improve, for the site, for us and for our profession at large"


There is nothing arbitrary about it. It has nothing to do with discussions staff do not "like". It is not even, in most cases, about site rules. It is about providing a positive, results-oriented environment.

The "staff do not listen" line: It would be a mistake to confuse staff not listening, or reading, with staff not acting on a direction or suggestion one would like them to act on.



I believe you would like to see things improve, on the site, and at large. Do you believe that staff are at odds with you on that?


Jared


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:50
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
@Jared, but then how do we find the actual "most recent" posts??? Apr 30

As I mentioned before, the problem is that there is NO OTHER WAY to find threads that have been updated most recently. The Forum search does not work for that.
Logic would say that if I leave all search field empty and choose "most recent " as opposed to "most relevant" (lower left corner) than the search would bring up ALL posts in reverse chronological order.
But it does not work.
Can you fix it then?
And if you are changing the FAQ, then wouldn't it be logical to chang
... See more
As I mentioned before, the problem is that there is NO OTHER WAY to find threads that have been updated most recently. The Forum search does not work for that.
Logic would say that if I leave all search field empty and choose "most recent " as opposed to "most relevant" (lower left corner) than the search would bring up ALL posts in reverse chronological order.
But it does not work.
Can you fix it then?
And if you are changing the FAQ, then wouldn't it be logical to change the name of "Most recent posts" to "Featured posts"? Otherwise the title is totally deceptive. Everyone who clicks on it would expect to see exactly that: the most recent posts.
Other platforms have this function, it is pretty basic, could you implement it?

Honestly, and I have said it before, I have no problem with "editorial control" over a "Featured posts" section, and you can use whatever criteria you want for that, based on content or whatever. But then please do not call it "Most recent posts", because it is not that.

If some threads have posts that are not in line with the site rules, then please apply consistent moderation and remove those. This is in everybody's interest. If a thread/post was deemed to pass the rules, then it should stay as is without further manipulation. The only criteria of including a thread in the "Most recent posts" should be the timestamp of the last modification.
Please explain where my logic is faulty.
Collapse


Jan Truper
Mirko Mainardi
Robert Forstag
 

Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:50
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Katalin & @Jared Apr 30

@Katalin:
There really are not two distinct lists, as far as I can see.

On my homepage, the header of the forum discussion section is “Recent forum discussions.” What appears here are discussions related to topics that I have preselected (i.e., except for thread notifications that have been deleted by staff).

Just beneath that header and to the right is a hotlink to “Recent Translation forum posts.” Clicking on that hotlink takes me to a list of all recent
... See more
@Katalin:
There really are not two distinct lists, as far as I can see.

On my homepage, the header of the forum discussion section is “Recent forum discussions.” What appears here are discussions related to topics that I have preselected (i.e., except for thread notifications that have been deleted by staff).

Just beneath that header and to the right is a hotlink to “Recent Translation forum posts.” Clicking on that hotlink takes me to a list of all recent discussions (i.e., not just discussions related to topics I have preselected). But here also, threads that have been removed by staff do not show up.

In sum, removed threads, even if they have not been locked, are inaccessible through either of these lists, and can only be accessed in the most roundabout of ways by anyone wishing to visit them.

@Jared:
I think that what Katalin is asking (and, at any rate, what I am asking here) is that you simply acknowledge that the above is indeed the case.

I personally accept that this site has the right to impose whatever rules it wants. But I also think it should be honest and forthright about those rules.

Surely you will agree that this is fair and reasonable.


[Edited at 2019-04-30 23:08 GMT]
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Jared Tabor
Local time: 06:50
SITE STAFF
Thanks Robert May 1

Robert Forstag wrote:

@Katalin:
There really are not two distinct lists, as far as I can see.

On my homepage, the header of the forum discussion section is “Recent forum discussions.” What appears here are discussions related to topics that I have preselected (i.e., except for thread notifications that have been deleted by staff).

Just beneath that header and to the right is a hotlink to “Recent Translation forum posts.” Clicking on that hotlink takes me to a list of all recent discussions (i.e., not just discussions related to topics I have preselected). But here also, threads that have been removed by staff do not show up.

In sum, removed threads, even if they have not been locked, are inaccessible through either of these lists, and can only be accessed in the most roundabout of ways by anyone wishing to visit them.


That is correct. The "Recent Posts" list is what feeds the home page listing of forum topics, though the home page listing can be filtered by your preferences of which forums get shown.

If I view any forum, I will see the list of all threads, regardless of their status. For example, the "Site forums" forum, https://www.proz.com/forum/52 . If I am subscribed to any forum or thread, I still get notifications, regardless of the status of a thread.


To repeat what (I think) I've already said here, a locked thread or a thread that does not get featured in recent posts or on the home page are not necessarily about violations of site rules. A thread that does not get featured may or may not contain site rules violations, which are dealt with. The site has certain areas which might be considered "prime real estate" in the sense that they tend to command more attention and time from users than others. In the case of the forums, "positive, results-oriented environment" and "a place to ask for, and receive help related to translation and the translation business" are the criteria that used in deciding what gets pushed in front of users.


At the moment, there is no option for a user to say, "I wish to see everything here, regardless of the content" on the home page and the recent posts list. Updates to the forums and how one can keep tabs on what is going on at ProZ.com are scheduled, and something like that may make a good addition to the changes (or become irrelevant as a result of the changes). In the interim, it might make sense to adjust the recent posts listing to encourage those who want to see everything to view or subscribe to the forums in which they are interested.

Jared


 

Jan Truper  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:50
English to German
+ ...
? May 1

Jared Tabor wrote:
In the interim, it might make sense to adjust the recent posts listing to encourage those who want to see everything to view or subscribe to the forums in which they are interested.

Jared


I don't understand what you mean by this sentence or whom it is directed towards.

To clarify why I am so peeved:

In the page "Homepage forums" (https://www.proz.com/dashboard/forum/?sp_forum_mode=homepage_forums), I explicitly activated the content I'd like to see by ticking the relevant boxes.
Now I have found out that my selection has been repeatedly overridden by ***someone, sometime for some reason***, without ever notifying me or even mentioning the possibility of such an occurrence in the first place.

The forums (including all negative, not results-oriented, not helpful und sometimes just plain idiotic content) are the main reason why I've been a paying customer in recent years, so I feel cheated by this secretive form of censorship.


Mirko Mainardi
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:50
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
“Does not compute” May 1

Jan Truper wrote:

Jared Tabor wrote:
In the interim, it might make sense to adjust the recent posts listing to encourage those who want to see everything to view or subscribe to the forums in which they are interested.

Jared


I don't understand what you mean by this sentence or whom it is directed towards.

does-not-compute

[Edited at 2019-05-01 15:51 GMT]


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:50
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Artificial hurdles are annoying May 1

Jared Tabor wrote:

To repeat what (I think) I've already said here,

And to repeat what I definitely have already said here...

... the criteria that used in deciding what gets pushed in front of users.


... I am fine with that, go ahead, control the push aspect, as long as I can find the content I wish to see.
At the moment it is very difficult, as you finally admitted. As Robert elegantly said, they "can only be accessed in the most roundabout of ways".

On that note, let me ask a direct technical question:
Is there a minimum character length required for the search string field in the Advance Forum Search?
If yes, what is that length and why?

On another note, what we are trying to say here is that while you are not deleting threads physically, by removing them from the "Most recent posts" you essentially exile them to oblivion, because most people do not remember which particular topic the thread was posted under, and then they have to manually scan several forums to find it. And that is why people feel it is a "secretive form of censorship", and feel cheated, deceived, etc. (Words from posts by other people.) I think one thing you could do right now (if you want), is simply rename "Most recent posts" to "Featured posts". It would not change what is happening, but I think it would reduce the feeling of deceit.

Thank you for telling us about upcoming feature changes, hopefully those will improve the situation. Do you have a timeline in mind?


Mirko Mainardi
Robert Forstag
 

Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:50
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Oblivion May 1

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:


On another note, what we are trying to say here is that while you are not deleting threads physically, by removing them from the "Most recent posts" you essentially exile them to oblivion, because most people do not remember which particular topic the thread was posted under, and then they have to manually scan several forums to find it.


This is really the heart of the matter. It is not simply a question of featuring certain content in preference to other content.


 
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