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Forum "agree" button released
Thread poster: Nicholas Sahm

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Member (2004)
English to Italian
It's only an Agree button... Jul 5, 2018

Lincoln Hui wrote:

I'm not sure what's more shocking - that you're having let high school students who have never programmed before design a website feature for professionals, or that you actually act like it's something you should be proud of. I'm shocked that you even have the nerve utter the word "professional", when you just declared how proud you are to not act like one.

Even more absurd is that in response to criticism to this unannounced, unasked-for and unwanted feature, you address nothing about the feature itself but talk about how it was made by two high school students so we should all be nice and don't say bad things about it, as though the fact that it was made by high school students changes anything about its nature. The way that you are trying to deflect responsibility onto these teenagers and play the guilt trip game is absolutely disgusting. This is willful exploitation of these kids, trying to make them take the blame while using them as a shield against criticism, behavior that is absolutely unbecoming of an adult.

We don't care who made the features, we care that the state of its implementation is abysmal and that you are using teenagers as a shield. The buck stops at ProZ management's desk and you need to stop making this kind of excuses and blaming them on your interns, which is utterly despicable and revolting.


I'm pretty shocked at this rant, to be honest... there's nothing wrong in asking interns to participate in projects to gain experience. It's called work experience. It happens everywhere in the world... and it's common practice. This is also addressed to Mirko and Katalin... set up for failure, exploitation, shielding behind kids... wow!

[Edited at 2018-07-05 11:47 GMT]


Chris S
 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 13:00
Member
English to Italian
No rant for me, thanks Jul 5, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

This is also addressed to Mirko and Katalin... set up for failure, exploitation, shielding behind kids... wow!


Please Giovanni, don't put words in my mouth... Read my posts again (if you really care...). I just asked (politely) to bring the feature back to what it was, since portrait icons are "ugly and impractical" especially (compared to the previous version of this feature). That is all.

As for having high schoolers work on ProZ's code, I beg to differ, and it really has nothing to do with the above, but again, it's not me who brought this up.


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:00
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
It's psychology Jul 5, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:


I'm pretty shocked at this rant, to be honest... there's nothing wrong in asking interns to participate in projects to gain experience. It's called work experience. It happens everywhere in the world... and it's common practice. This is also addressed to Mirko and Katalin... set up for failure, exploitation, shielding behind kids... wow!

[Edited at 2018-07-05 11:47 GMT]


Asking interns to participate in projects is one thing, accepting and using their projects on a professional site without asking members (paying and non paying) whether they agree with this change is another thing.

Giovanni, you shouldn't be shocked. This was the point when people said enough.
It's simply psychology.
Too many things were done on this site without our knowledge.
And we figured out too many things accidentally. So these implementations were done behind our back, without asking us. Many of us also pay for this site. This is not Facebook. This is much more serious. This is about business and business relies on trust. This trust began to fade.

Full names were not shown on the normal proz.com site' directory in May (and who knows how long).
Everybody was Jane and John D. Nobody was notified about this. Now only Plus subscribers and Business members can contact and can be contacted on Proz.com mobile directory. Meanwhile it is the same directory.

Fortunately normal (non mobile and non ipad) seems to be back normal and I hope now everybody has her/his chosen real data on their profile with correct email addresses, website links and full names (if they chose so).
And I really hope it will be the same on Proz.com Mobile and Proz.com Ipad soon.



Proz.com should understand that they can keep their members only,

1) if they ask their members before they implement something.

2) they don't interfere into translators' businesses. We don't work for proz.com. We are not the employees of Proz.com.

3) if they don't restrict the visibility of contact details, full names, translators' websites etc. They give all useful tools into translators' hands that help us in marketing. Live and let live.

4) if they have server problems they admit that.

5) if they have transparency throughout the whole site and all in their business practices... on Blue Board on TWB etc.



[Edited at 2018-07-05 12:39 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-07-05 12:47 GMT]


 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Maybe... Jul 5, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:


Please Giovanni, don't put words in my mouth... Read my posts again (if you really care...). I just asked (politely) to bring the feature back to what it was, since portrait icons are "ugly and impractical" especially (compared to the previous version of this feature). That is all.

As for having high schoolers work on ProZ's code, I beg to differ, and it really has nothing to do with the above, but again, it's not me who brought this up.


Albeit not a "rant" per se, I don't find the following particularly kind.... of course you are entitled to your opinion, but let's not forget we are talking about an Agree button...


Agreed. As for me, I just think that letting high schoolers tinker with what is supposed to be a professional (and paid for) service for a school project is not... a good idea. As is guilt-tripping users because they reacted negatively to something that is unwelcome, was never requested or announced (but that seems to have become the norm...) and could (and should) simply have never been anticipated or imagined.


Thomas T. Frost
 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Fair enough... Jul 5, 2018

Katalin Szilárd wrote:


Asking interns to participate in projects is one thing, accepting and using their projects on a professional site without asking members (paying and non paying) whether they agree with this change is another thing.

Giovanni, you shouldn't be shocked. This was the point when people said enough.
It's simply psychology.
Too many things were done on this site without our knowledge.
And we figured out too many things accidentally. So these implementations were done behind our back, without asking us. Many of us also pay for this site. This is not Facebook. This is much more serious. This is about business and business relies on trust. This trust began to fade.

Full names were not shown on the normal proz.com site' directory in May (and who knows how long).
Everybody was Jane and John D. Nobody was notified about this. Now only Plus subscribers and Business members can contact and can be contacted on Proz.com mobile directory. Meanwhile it is the same directory.

Fortunately normal (non mobile and non ipad) seems to be back normal and I hope now everybody has her/his chosen real data on their profile with correct email addresses, website links and full names (if they chose so).
And I really hope it will be the same on Proz.com Mobile and Proz.com Ipad soon.



Proz.com should understand that they can keep their members only,

1) if they ask their members before they implement something.

2) they don't interfere into translators' businesses. We don't work for proz.com. We are not the employees of Proz.com.

3) if they don't restrict the visibility of contact details, full names, translators' websites etc. They give all useful tools into translators' hands that help us in marketing. Live and let live.

4) if they have server problems they admit that.

5) if they have transparency throughout the whole site and all in their business practices... on Blue Board on TWB etc.




Maybe you should vote with your wallet and not renew your membership, or maybe you should ask for a refund... Personally, I think you are being far too harsh... I really do believe that Henry is trying to improve the site. The reason might be a tad commercial (read to increase revenues), but nevertheless I find it positive that the site is trying to evolve.


Thomas T. Frost
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:00
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
You wouldn't call me harsh at all if you knew the truth Jul 5, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Maybe you should vote with your wallet and not renew your membership, or maybe you should ask for a refund... Personally, I think you are being far too harsh... I really do believe that Henry is trying to improve the site. The reason might be a tad commercial (read to increase revenues), but nevertheless I find it positive that the site is trying to evolve.


I'm not harsh at all. Henry knows it very well what I'm talking about...

I don't know how positive is for you (both professionally and financially) that your name is shown as Giovanni G. in the directory and you cannot be contacted because you are not a Plus subscriber/Business subscriber and this is done without your knowledge, behind your back, and people are figuring this out accidentally, or just trying to find out why they don't have the visitor numbers and jobs they had before...

This is the same with agreers and distorted icons. Nobody was notified.


Robin Levey
 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:00
SITE FOUNDER
Unacceptable language for these forums Jul 6, 2018

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Which idiot thought this was a good idea?


Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

The issue is the stupid portrait icons.


Site rule 2, folks. Keep it civil. Thank you.


Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:00
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Henry, with all due respect Jul 6, 2018

I did not call any person stupid. I called and consider the icons themselves stupid-looking. Others called them with other negative adjectives as well (e.g. ugly, impractical and childish). Why is stupid different?
Please take a look at those icons. Do you consider them aesthetic and meaningful? Necessary? Value-adding?

By the way, I immediately replied to your questions that you sent me in a private email weeks ago (on a different topic) and I have not heard from you back an
... See more
I did not call any person stupid. I called and consider the icons themselves stupid-looking. Others called them with other negative adjectives as well (e.g. ugly, impractical and childish). Why is stupid different?
Please take a look at those icons. Do you consider them aesthetic and meaningful? Necessary? Value-adding?

By the way, I immediately replied to your questions that you sent me in a private email weeks ago (on a different topic) and I have not heard from you back anything. Not even a thank you. So much for mutual respect.

[Edited at 2018-07-06 03:04 GMT]
Collapse


Mirko Mainardi
 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Just checked... Jul 6, 2018

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

I'm not harsh at all. Henry knows it very well what I'm talking about...

I don't know how positive is for you (both professionally and financially) that your name is shown as Giovanni G. in the directory and you cannot be contacted because you are not a Plus subscriber/Business subscriber and this is done without your knowledge, behind your back, and people are figuring this out accidentally, or just trying to find out why they don't have the visitor numbers and jobs they had before...

This is the same with agreers and distorted icons. Nobody was notified.


I did a search with the Alpha Find and my name is shown in its entirety and it can be clicked on... I'm not a Plus subscriber. And yesterday I received an e-mail asking for to collaborate in the medical field. The person stated they found me through a search on ProZ... so, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Edited at 2018-07-06 07:20 GMT]


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:00
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Many members know what I'm talking about... Jul 6, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

I'm not harsh at all. Henry knows it very well what I'm talking about...

I don't know how positive is for you (both professionally and financially) that your name is shown as Giovanni G. in the directory and you cannot be contacted because you are not a Plus subscriber/Business subscriber and this is done without your knowledge, behind your back, and people are figuring this out accidentally, or just trying to find out why they don't have the visitor numbers and jobs they had before...

This is the same with agreers and distorted icons. Nobody was notified.


I did a search with the Alpha Find and my name is shown in its entirety and it can be clicked on... I'm not a Plus subscriber. And yesterday I received an e-mail asking for to collaborate in the medical field. The person stated they found me through a search on ProZ... so, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Edited at 2018-07-06 07:20 GMT]


Did you do this search without being logged in?
Did you do this search on normal proz.com or on mobile proz.com?

In May the normal proz.com directory used translators' names as Jane and John D.
I have a printscreen of that (English to Hungarian). But I have a printscreen of other language pairs as well from that time. Not Italian though.

2 weeks ago a member accidentally figured out that in the Proz.com Mobile's directory someone cannot be contacted if someone is not a Plus subscriber or the visitor is not a Business subscriber.
If this has changed, then Proz.com has changed it since then.

[Edited at 2018-07-06 10:07 GMT]


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 13:00
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Italian Jul 6, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

I did a search with the Alpha Find and my name is shown in its entirety and it can be clicked on... I'm not a Plus subscriber. And yesterday I received an e-mail asking for to collaborate in the medical field. The person stated they found me through a search on ProZ... so, I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Edited at 2018-07-06 07:20 GMT]


Actually here is a part of the Italian directory (the shorter version).

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YZbSlzaJx2IJ:https://www.proz.com/italian-to-english-translators

Screenshot_2018-07-06 English to Italian translators and interpreters - ProZ com

Here you can see that all translators' names are: Jane and John D.
The names in the normal directory looked the same.

UPDATE:

Sorry your language pair is English to Italian.. not the opposite pair.
So your name is somewhere there....

[Edited at 2018-07-06 10:59 GMT]


 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Bug? Jul 6, 2018

On the second page, the names are shown in full... if you click on page 1 again, the name are in full... looks to me it's a software bug...

 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 13:00
Member
English to Italian
Kindness ;-) Jul 6, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Please Giovanni, don't put words in my mouth... Read my posts again (if you really care...). I just asked (politely) to bring the feature back to what it was, since portrait icons are "ugly and impractical" especially (compared to the previous version of this feature). That is all.

As for having high schoolers work on ProZ's code, I beg to differ, and it really has nothing to do with the above, but again, it's not me who brought this up.


Albeit not a "rant" per se, I don't find the following particularly kind.... of course you are entitled to your opinion, but let's not forget we are talking about an Agree button...


Agreed. As for me, I just think that letting high schoolers tinker with what is supposed to be a professional (and paid for) service for a school project is not... a good idea. As is guilt-tripping users because they reacted negatively to something that is unwelcome, was never requested or announced (but that seems to have become the norm...) and could (and should) simply have never been anticipated or imagined.


Giovanni, speaking of "rants"... not sure what your point is anymore and why you dragged me into this... First you single me out saying I wrote things I didn't write, then you say it's because you "don't find particularly kind" what I wrote (really?). Anything else?

And yes, we're talking about a minor feature, which however is part of a bigger picture. Things are being changed non stop, quite often without even saying what is being changed, why, how and what impact such change is going to have on us (if any), let alone asking for our opinion, all of that while there are outstanding issues that aren't getting any attention or even a simple reply. Change for the sake of change is not a value. And sorry if this does not sound "kind" to you, for whatever reason...


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 13:00
Member
English to Italian
Not cached Jul 6, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

On the second page, the names are shown in full... if you click on page 1 again, the name are in full... looks to me it's a software bug...


Because after you click on the second page you're not seeing the cached content anymore, but the live one...


Katalin Szilárd
 
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