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"This has been discussed before" Issue
Thread poster: Sormane Gomes
two2tango
two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:36
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Call me naive... Dec 9, 2004

... but I could never be sarcastic with a newbie asking a question that a tired veteran could find silly...

We should remember those days when the world was a big if, and we did not only ignore the answers, but we did not even know the proper questions!

Don't you feel that great people should be humble? Helpful? Friendly?

Q


 
Ciprian Dumea
Ciprian Dumea  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:36
English to Romanian
+ ...
total agreement here :-) Dec 9, 2004

two2tango wrote:

Don't you feel that great people should be humble? Helpful? Friendly?

Q


Way to go, Enrique! "With great power comes greater responsibility". A saying which has never failed me, or any other professional I know. And the only thing which can truly help you fulfill your responsibilities is a humble heart, open towards the other, willing to forget any offense and to offer a remedy for that which can be cured.

Reading these postings, I can only say I am glad there are so many great ProZ moderators.

Regards,
Ciprian.


 
Claudia Iglesias
Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 13:36
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
Silly or basic questions Dec 10, 2004

MarcPrior wrote:
By the same token, other questions are so basic or silly that they really don't deserve an answer. I am thinking of questions along the lines of "How do I get started in this translation lark?". I suspect that responders' sarcasm has as much to do with the inappropriateness of the question as with the fact that it has been asked before. ProZ.com is a workplace used by translators, interpreters, translation agencies and their clients to meet and do work; the fact that it is a good venue to get answers to practical questions doesn't mean that it should be abused as an online training course for translators. There are parallels here incidentally with the recurring abuse of KudoZ by the unqualified.


Dear Marc

I wouldn't call this kind of questions abuse. Everyone has his own story and the answer to the same question might be different depending on who asks (a young student or a retired person, for instance).

I discovered ProZ.com long, long ago. There were only some forums (maybe just one), in English. I introduced myself as a teacher willing to become a translator and asked for advice. The answers that I got were unfriendly, and I was told to change my mind and forget about becoming a translator. That kept me away from ProZ for more than one year. Then, I moved to another country, had no work but had a broadband connection, and Proz.com became my best friend. And I could find here all the advice and nearly all what I know about translation today. Thanks to those who answered my basic or silly questions. For me it was an online training course, but I don't consider that I abused it. In fact I took all that it could give me (and it can give me more, but I'm not ready to learn everything).

The How to is a good idea, Ruxi had suggested a How to for beginners, it's a very good idea. I also feel sometimes that the same question has been asked 50 times, but...it makes me feel a little bit ill at ease when I see people who ask something but before asking they apologize "sorry if this has been discussed before and so on". People should also feel free to ask. Maybe they will receive only links instead of answers, but they are answers too.

My two Chilean pesos

Claudia


 
Selçuk Budak
Selçuk Budak  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:36
English to Turkish
+ ...
equal footing Dec 11, 2004

two2tango wrote:

... but I could never be sarcastic with a newbie asking a question that a tired veteran could find silly...

We should remember those days when the world was a big if, and we did not only ignore the answers, but we did not even know the proper questions!

Don't you feel that great people should be humble? Helpful? Friendly?

Q


I really thank to two2tango for this humble, good-natured attitude.

Nevertheless, I find it hard to agree with:

two2tango wrote:

Sometimes a colleague may sound harsh because he/she had a bad day, or because he/she is using a language he/she is not very familiar with...


In effect, this is tantamount to saying that a husband beating his wife should be excused on the grounds that he is in low spirits, or that a torturer tormenting his victim can be excused if s/he had a bad day!

Since this is an emotion-free medium of communication, posters or askers have no means to check the day-to-day fluctuations in the mood of any potential answerer or moderator, and therefore, cannot "synchronize" his/her postings/questions with the "high spirits" of responders.

Neither such pretexts, nor those expressed in terms of linguistic flaws can, and in my opinion should, be used to gloss over the actual harassment.

To use some psychological jargon, we are not substitutes for the displaced anger of those who might had a bad day! We are your equals (aren't we? as in Orwell's Animal Farm?). We, newbie or otherwise, expect treatment on an equal footing. You are volunteers, and as such, we do not ascribe you the roles of a parent scolding his/her child for misconduct or a teacher scolding his/her student for ignorance.

Such pretexts and behaviors would serve, in the long run, to drive existing or potential members out of Proz Community, an outcome contrary to the perceived mission of Proz community as well as to the policy of any reasonable webmaster who tries to increase the number of members/visitors of his site.

To put it briefly: Please do not respond (including this post of mine) if you are not in high spirits. You can simply ignore it for the time being. After all, you are not obliged to respond each and every post. Please remember that there are tens of able moderators here who can handle the particular case effectively.

Best wishes to all of our humble moderators
SB


 
two2tango
two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:36
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
What I tried to say... maybe I said it wrong the first time Dec 15, 2004

Hi Selçuk, I believe you are reading me wrong (or I expressed myself wrong)

The paragraph of mine you find it hard to agree with:

Sometimes a colleague may sound harsh because he/she had a bad day, or because he/she is using a language he/she is not very familiar with... As a general rule I would suggest to assume good faith and look for the bright side of life .


does by no means condone misstreatment or abuse of any kind.

Just in case I was not clear, I am against any kind of abuse, be it in ProZ.com or in life.

All I wanted to say (I apologize if my English was not clear enough) was that sometimes what you consider abuse was not intended as that, and that I find wise to assume in principle good faith from the other side.

If and when this good faith proves wrong and the abuse is there, I can figth is as strongly as anyone. But in my experience many a flame war started from a chain of misunderstandings.

Regards,
Enrique


 
Nesrin
Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:36
English to Arabic
+ ...
Simple solution Dec 15, 2004

I agree with Sormane 100% - but "This has been discussed before" would sound so much nicer if followed by a link to that specific discussion that has taken place before. The asker will be very grateful to be pointed to previous discussions (which, I agree, are often very difficult to find through the "Search"), and the thread can amicably end there.

 
Selçuk Budak
Selçuk Budak  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:36
English to Turkish
+ ...
Quarrel in a Straw Dec 17, 2004

Hi Enrique,

I am really sorry if perceived as such, but my message by no means meant to be a confrontation, nor I believe the least that you would resort to such alibi or condone such abuse. I am really sorry for that. ):

What I tried to emphasize is the fact that such expressions are prone to be used as a basis for "explaining away," or to use a more technical term, to "rationalize" in its proper sense, the attitudes perceived undesirable, unfair, or humiliating by th
... See more
Hi Enrique,

I am really sorry if perceived as such, but my message by no means meant to be a confrontation, nor I believe the least that you would resort to such alibi or condone such abuse. I am really sorry for that. ):

What I tried to emphasize is the fact that such expressions are prone to be used as a basis for "explaining away," or to use a more technical term, to "rationalize" in its proper sense, the attitudes perceived undesirable, unfair, or humiliating by the objects of such attitudes and that we need a liability-proof system for interacting.

It is true that not too infrequently we find a quarrel in a straw either because the straw looms too large, or because it blocks our vision when held too close to our eyes.

So let's try to remove those straws before our eyes in order to be able to forestall all misunderstanding & subsequent hurts.

I am in the opinion that as a big, universal community we are, or would feel ourselves, at a crossroad at wich a leap forward would mean a transition into a more mature, unified, organized, well defined structure, and that all this turmoil, these misunderstandings, even clashes are simply the symptoms of our unavoidable "growing pains."

For the rest, as this is the Christmas time, please read my message as: (I do not remember exact wording)

"O Lord, give me strong eyes to see all things important!
And, weak eyes not to see those unimportant!"

Merry Christmas, and I wish a Happy New Year to all prozians.
Regards,
Selçuk


[Edited at 2004-12-17 08:26]
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two2tango
two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 13:36
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Words of wisdom Dec 17, 2004

Selçuk Budak wrote:

It is true that not too infrequently we find a quarrel in a straw either because the straw looms too large, or because it blocks our vision when held too close to our eyes.

So let's try to remove those straws before our eyes in order to be able to forestall all misunderstanding & subsequent hurts.

I am in the opinion that as a big, universal community we are, or would feel ourselves, at a crossroad at wich a leap forward would mean a transition into a more mature, unified, organized, well defined structure, and that all this turmoil, these misunderstandings, even clashes are simply the symptoms of our unavoidable "growing pains."

For the rest, as this is the Christmas time, please read my message as: (I do not remember exact wording)

"O Lord, give me strong eyes to see all things important!
And, weak eyes not to see those unimportant!"

Merry Christmas, and I wish a Happy New Year to all prozians.
Regards,
Selçuk



Hi Selçuk, your words are full of wisdom.
Many happy days to you and to all members of this great community.
Enrique


 
Anjo Sterringa
Anjo Sterringa  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 17:36
English to Dutch
+ ...
Live and let live Dec 19, 2004

"Don't you feel that great people should be humble? Helpful? Friendly?"
YES! And not only great people, everybody!

Today you may be a translation veteran, but only yesterday you were just taking your first steps in the world of translation, and just because of the fact that topics have been discussed before does not mean they are less important for people starting out today. I doesn't mean that there are no new
... See more
"Don't you feel that great people should be humble? Helpful? Friendly?"
YES! And not only great people, everybody!

Today you may be a translation veteran, but only yesterday you were just taking your first steps in the world of translation, and just because of the fact that topics have been discussed before does not mean they are less important for people starting out today. I doesn't mean that there are no new view points, developments or ideas either!
What you think is sooooo easy and self-explanatory may not be that simple for me at all.
We do not have to read, or answer posts that are of no interest to us - isn't that great!
Just let's be - humble, helpful, friendly!
MERRY CHRISTMAS! A SMOOTH 2005 FOR EVERYBODY....
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tectranslate ITS GmbH
tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 17:36
German
+ ...
Stickies Aug 11, 2005

What the ProZ.com fora need, imho, is a Stickies feature.

For all non-geeks out there: Stickies are topics that are permanently pinned to the top of the topics list in an Internet forum, i.e. don't gradually move down the list and eventually out of sight after a while.

With such Stickies, the ever-repeating questions of "How do I open file format X in Trados?", "How can I edit PDF files?", "When does the client pay my invoice?" etc. pp. could be answered once and for al
... See more
What the ProZ.com fora need, imho, is a Stickies feature.

For all non-geeks out there: Stickies are topics that are permanently pinned to the top of the topics list in an Internet forum, i.e. don't gradually move down the list and eventually out of sight after a while.

With such Stickies, the ever-repeating questions of "How do I open file format X in Trados?", "How can I edit PDF files?", "When does the client pay my invoice?" etc. pp. could be answered once and for all and would be prominently visible even to "newbies". Further queries of the same kind could then be answered with a simple reference to the corresponding Stickie and closed so as to avoid further cluttering of the fora and raised blood pressure levels among long-term members.

The advantage of Stickies vs. HowTos is obviously the visibility - the HowTos are a completely different section of the site. And certainly the Stickies could make reference to possibly existing HowTos.

Whaddya think?

Regards,
Benjamin

P.S.: I thought I'd requested such a feature previously but can't seem to find any evidence that I actually did. Anyway, it's official now.
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moken
moken  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:36
English to Spanish
+ ...
Excellent idea Benjamin Dec 14, 2005

tectranslate wrote:

What the ProZ.com fora need, imho, is a Stickies feature.

For all non-geeks out there: Stickies are topics that are permanently pinned to the top of the topics list in an Internet forum, i.e. don't gradually move down the list and eventually out of sight after a while.



I second it.

The only problem is that this thread is a year old, the most recent post was in August and chances are that not many people are currently visiting it, whereas at least half a dozen topics have been posted on the subject of 'rates' over the last couple of weeks!

Cheers,

ÁlvaroDD


 
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