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The most important thing about translation tagging is respect
Thread poster: Enrique F Granados-González

Diana Coada  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:32
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Phil, Jan 26, 2013

if a worker wants to improve a particular skill they enrol on a professional course. Simple.

PS: sorry for reading WRONGLY between the lines

[Edited at 2013-01-26 11:16 GMT]


 

FoundInTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:32
Member (2012)
German to English
+ ...
Innuendo Jan 28, 2013

I even had an innuendo made out of one of the verbs I used in this contest, to be clear a tagger tried to sexualise the verb "to display". It's somewhat like the Kudoz system e.g. even when replying with a low confidence answer of scale 1 (guess) or 2 (low) i.e. brainstorming, a rather caustic or even sarcastic reply is sometimes received.

Patrick

[Edited at 2013-01-28 14:58 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-01-28 15:03 GMT]


 

Ritareis  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:32
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Is it just me? Jan 28, 2013

I am a bit disappointed about the contest. As it is my first time, only now have I realised there isn’t a set group of people assessing all the submitted texts and it’s people randomly tagging the different translations as they please. My problem is that sometimes you see different texts with expressions translated exactly the same way, but one will get a green tag and the other will get a red one.
I’m getting the impression there is a lot of politics going on.


 

vaglo
Local time: 10:32
English to Russian
it's not just you, Ritareis Jan 28, 2013

If people want this contest to be professional, when it should be assessed by professionals-- i.e.naturally bilingual persons both in source and target languages, able to write and edit professionally. There should be more place allowed for comments and comments could be neutral as well. And to be entirely objective, people who submitted their entries should not have the right to assess this part of the contest. Maybe only have the right to defend their choice in case it was marked as a "dislike... See more
If people want this contest to be professional, when it should be assessed by professionals-- i.e.naturally bilingual persons both in source and target languages, able to write and edit professionally. There should be more place allowed for comments and comments could be neutral as well. And to be entirely objective, people who submitted their entries should not have the right to assess this part of the contest. Maybe only have the right to defend their choice in case it was marked as a "dislike". And explanations provided should be clear and somehow supported.Collapse


 

Ambrose Li  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:32
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Disappointed too Jan 28, 2013

I certainly am disappointed. Ritareis’ “people randomly tagging the different translations as they please” says it very well. I don’t mind people criticising my entry, but the criticisms got to make sense; when you check out others’ entries and see people cut a word into half and then say there’s an error (because they cut up the word, not because the submitter actually made a mistake) that’s vandalism.

[Edited at 2013-01-28 18:35 GMT]


 

Enrique F Granados-González  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:32
Member (2011)
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The end Feb 4, 2013

I regret having started this thread. I have just visited the contest page and I have seen that all the practices evidenced in these comments haven't decreased but increased. I surrender.

Thank you all for your comments but I think this thread is completely useless: people tagging inconsistently, disrespectful, tagging differently the same assumed errors depending on the text, people giving mere opinions not based in facts but in feelings, preferences, randomly, etc. Giving prescript
... See more
I regret having started this thread. I have just visited the contest page and I have seen that all the practices evidenced in these comments haven't decreased but increased. I surrender.

Thank you all for your comments but I think this thread is completely useless: people tagging inconsistently, disrespectful, tagging differently the same assumed errors depending on the text, people giving mere opinions not based in facts but in feelings, preferences, randomly, etc. Giving prescriptions without supporting them,... Well, it is not necessary to repeat it all.

Best regards, Bye.
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Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:32
Hebrew to English
One reservation..... Feb 4, 2013

vaglo wrote:
If people want this contest to be professional, when it should be assessed by professionals-- i.e.naturally bilingual persons both in source and target languages, able to write and edit professionally.


I largely agree with your other points, but I have reservations over your definition of a professional. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "naturally bilingual" but if you mean a 'true bilingual' i.e. someone raised with two or more languages from birth, then I don't think this is a pre-requisite for professionalism, or competence. I know plenty of true bilinguals who aren't actually very good with their languages or linguistics.. so-called true bilinguals don't have a monopoly on professionalism or talent/ability.

The ability to write and edit professionally should surely be a minimal requirement, whether a born and raised bilingual or not.

[Edited at 2013-02-04 12:11 GMT]


 

Ivan Fosin  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 05:32
French to Croatian
+ ...
agree Feb 4, 2013

Ty Kendall wrote:

vaglo wrote:
If people want this contest to be professional, when it should be assessed by professionals-- i.e.naturally bilingual persons both in source and target languages, able to write and edit professionally.


I largely agree with your other points, but I have reservations over your definition of a professional. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "naturally bilingual" but if you mean a 'true bilingual' i.e. someone raised with two or more languages from birth, then I don't think this is a pre-requisite for professionalism, or competence. I know plenty of true bilinguals who aren't actually very good with their languages or linguistics.. so-called true bilinguals don't have a monopoly on professionalism or talent/ability.

The ability to write and edit professionally should surely be a minimal requirement, whether a born and raised bilingual or not.

[Edited at 2013-02-04 12:11 GMT]


I completely agree with you on that... Bilingualism doesn't have anything to do with translation competence!

And there's the way I would organize this contest: maybe there should be a predetermined group of translators for each language pair who would try to assess anonymous entries (similar to the system we have now) adjusting opinions between themselves so that decisions are consistent and objective for each participant and their translation solutions (that means that either two or more identical good solutions, either two or more identical bad solutions are evaluated equally). And of course, those "translators-reviewers" should be obliged to argument every decision they make.


 

Ambrose Li  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:32
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Assessment Feb 5, 2013

ProZ currently doesn’t allow submitters to rate their own entries. Ironically, allowing submitters to rate their own entries might be part of the solution.

I’ve seen systems where they allow students to rate each other’s essays. Two so far in fact (Coursera’s peer review system and Pearson Education’s “Peer Scholar”) and in both cases rating your own essay is mandatory, or your other ratings (and essay) don’t count. I don’t know the math behind it, but it appears t
... See more
ProZ currently doesn’t allow submitters to rate their own entries. Ironically, allowing submitters to rate their own entries might be part of the solution.

I’ve seen systems where they allow students to rate each other’s essays. Two so far in fact (Coursera’s peer review system and Pearson Education’s “Peer Scholar”) and in both cases rating your own essay is mandatory, or your other ratings (and essay) don’t count. I don’t know the math behind it, but it appears that your own rating of yourself is used to normalize your ratings of others—to estimate your credibility, so to speak.
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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 12:32
Chinese to English
Overthinking it a bit Feb 5, 2013

I understand the urge to make the contests fair, but I think you're all overthinking it a bit.

I would note a few things:

1) It's a bit of fun. If you can't take the competition in the spirit of fun, you probably shouldn't enter it. This is the internet: people are going to say daft things.

2) The tags are not actually "error" tags. They are "like" and "dislike". It is perfectly possible to recognise a translation as correct, but nevertheless to dislike it
... See more
I understand the urge to make the contests fair, but I think you're all overthinking it a bit.

I would note a few things:

1) It's a bit of fun. If you can't take the competition in the spirit of fun, you probably shouldn't enter it. This is the internet: people are going to say daft things.

2) The tags are not actually "error" tags. They are "like" and "dislike". It is perfectly possible to recognise a translation as correct, but nevertheless to dislike it.

3) Taking part in the marking is actually an important element of the competition. Even those who don't enter can learn something through their own process of tagging and grading, and then comparing with how other people grade. And that's the point: this is a learning opportunity for everyone, NOT an opportunity for a few "winners" to show off.

It is irritating when a competition goes disastrously wrong (e.g. the last competition English to Chinese pair). But that danger will always exist, and I'm not sure that tweaking the rules would make much difference.

And if your rule tweaking is all aimed at making sure the right "winners" are selected, then your objectives are wrong.
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Ambrose Li  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:32
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Pondering over the overthinking bit (or one of those bits) Feb 5, 2013

Phil Hand wrote:

2) The tags are not actually "error" tags. They are "like" and "dislike". It is perfectly possible to recognise a translation as correct, but nevertheless to dislike it.


I mostly agree, and that’s one reason I tend to not respond to “other” tags (or at least I try to—when you look at the contest page every day it can be difficult to keep calm and not do stupid things). However, tagging something as “mistranslation” (and to a lesser degree “spelling”) is definitely not simply a “dislike”; it’s undeniably a claim that an error has been spotted.

So perhaps the wording in the UI is maybe not so well thought out and is giving people the wrong impression. Which is a bit ironical, I suppose, given what kind of site this is.


 

Erik Freitag  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:32
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Agree - Competition as a learning opportunity Feb 5, 2013

Phil Hand wrote:

2) The tags are not actually "error" tags. They are "like" and "dislike". It is perfectly possible to recognise a translation as correct, but nevertheless to dislike it.

3) Taking part in the marking is actually an important element of the competition. Even those who don't enter can learn something through their own process of tagging and grading, and then comparing with how other people grade. And that's the point: this is a learning opportunity for everyone, NOT an opportunity for a few "winners" to show off.



I agree: It's mainly an opportunity to learn (at least for me). That's exactly why I think a more elaborate system, more than just tagging with a short comment might come handy, so people can exchange their views. More than once, I've added a dislike tag, which the author answered with a "disagree" and a short explanation, after which I could see why he'd made a particular decision. Now you could say that I should have thought harder before adding a tag, and you'd certainly be right. But still, there's currently no easy way to have a discussion about specific aspects of a translation.


Phil Hand wrote:
It is irritating when a competition goes disastrously wrong (e.g. the last competition English to Chinese pair). But that danger will always exist, and I'm not sure that tweaking the rules would make much difference.

And if your rule tweaking is all aimed at making sure the right "winners" are selected, then your objectives are wrong.


For those of us who couldn't follow the English to Chinese pair, would you mind summing up in a few words what went wrong during the last competition?


 

Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:32
Hebrew to English
You read my mind.... Feb 5, 2013

Phil Hand wrote:
2) The tags are not actually "error" tags. They are "like" and "dislike". It is perfectly possible to recognise a translation as correct, but nevertheless to dislike it.


I had intended on making this point yesterday, but my train of thought got derailed and I totally forgot.


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 12:32
Chinese to English
Limited interaction can be good Feb 5, 2013

efreitag wrote:

More than once, I've added a dislike tag, which the author answered with a "disagree" and a short explanation, after which I could see why he'd made a particular decision. Now you could say that I should have thought harder before adding a tag, and you'd certainly be right. But still, there's currently no easy way to have a discussion about specific aspects of a translation.

I can certainly see that, but

1) There will be an opportunity for more in-depth discussion after the voting closes, if you want to carry on the discussion. Just post your thoughts in a forum post.

2) Don't underestimate the value of limited interaction. Online conversations get very heated very easily; and what would another reply really achieve? I think the positives of the system probably outweigh the negatives.


For those of us who couldn't follow the English to Chinese pair, would you mind summing up in a few words what went wrong during the last competition?

Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned it, because I don't want to get into a debate about it (nor do I want to break any rules!). Let's just say this: it is possible for the "wrong" result to emerge in a specific contest. But that doesn't really matter if the people who take part learn something from the contest (and I feel like a lot of the Chinese translators did learn from the last one).


 

NataliaShevchuk  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:32
English to Russian
+ ...
respect must be mutual Mar 7, 2013

It seems to be an absolute axiom that all participants submitting entries should have bothered to prepare their texts in a "minimally professional" manner, i. e. have them proofread, edited, checked etc. The peers are entitled to evaluate the entries free of typos, elementary errors and inconsistencies, aren't they?.. If a person fearlessly submits something looking like a machine-translated crap, just because he/she has an option to stay anonymous, - what respect we are talking about? Therefore... See more
It seems to be an absolute axiom that all participants submitting entries should have bothered to prepare their texts in a "minimally professional" manner, i. e. have them proofread, edited, checked etc. The peers are entitled to evaluate the entries free of typos, elementary errors and inconsistencies, aren't they?.. If a person fearlessly submits something looking like a machine-translated crap, just because he/she has an option to stay anonymous, - what respect we are talking about? Therefore, I'd suggest eliminating the option of unticking the box "Show my name with my entry after voting closes, even if I do not win". Such practice encourages people to participate in contest just on a "hit-or-miss" basis. When it's over, all masks should be taken off.Collapse


 
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