| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | A new feature for this contest: group commentary on the source text Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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| Hybrid phase: Now possible to rate entries in Italian, and vote for best in Afrikaans | Oct 18, 2012 |
Hi all,
The contest has been advanced into the "hybrid" phase. However, to allow for testing before we resume competition across the board, we have opened up the hybrid period in only two pairs: Afrikaans and Italian.
Afrikaans, with five entries, has been put in "Finals" mode. Participants are asked to rank the entries, picking their #1, #2 and #3 translations. Although the interface is different, the functionality is as it was in past contests.
The Englis... See more Hi all,
The contest has been advanced into the "hybrid" phase. However, to allow for testing before we resume competition across the board, we have opened up the hybrid period in only two pairs: Afrikaans and Italian.
Afrikaans, with five entries, has been put in "Finals" mode. Participants are asked to rank the entries, picking their #1, #2 and #3 translations. Although the interface is different, the functionality is as it was in past contests.
The English to Italian pair has been put into "qualification" mode. The goal of qualification mode, as before, is to narrow down the field to a number that can reasonably be compared in a finals round. The way rating works this time, however, is different. Rating is to be carried out on a segment-by-segment basis.
Translators working in these two pairs: please go in and vote or rate, and let us know if you experience any glitches, or have any suggestions for improving the functionality.
After we establish that things are working as they should in these pairs, we'll open up more pairs. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| So, we can't comment on the Afrikaans | Oct 18, 2012 |
Henry Dotterer wrote:
Afrikaans, with five entries, has been put in "Finals" mode. Participants are asked to rank the entries, picking their #1, #2 and #3 translations. Although the interface is different, the functionality is as it was in past contests.
So we can only vote, but we can't comment (not on individual segments, and not on the translation as a whole), right? It seems a bit silly, because if I see good and bad translations within a single entry, I can't say so... I can simply "vote for the best of the worst". At the very least it would have been great to be able to discuss the translations (or comment on them) as whole translation, or even to comment on all entries at the same time, in a single comment space.
Samuel
PS. And, as with previous contests, I'm not able to vote for the best entry...
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I think commenting on source text should start with the submission phase so that people can create more quality texts.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 16:33
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I don't agree but... | Oct 18, 2012 |
Ali Bayraktar wrote:
I think commenting on source text should start with the submission phase so that people can create more quality texts.
I certainly can't see any benefit to the community from explaining every intricacy of a source text before translating it: where's the competitive element in that?
However, I do think that it would be good to have somewhere to record our thoughts about the text when we're actually studying it. Only then do we know exactly what the problems were and what we considered as possible solutions. Unless we can write down all our thoughts, some are bound to be lost (though younger translators may not have the same problems, I admit).
Perhaps there could be a personal comments area that is not published until after submissions close, and then only after review: things that appeared to be problems may have been resolved by then.
Don't know whether that would work in practice, but it's a thought.
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| Thanks, Sheila | Oct 18, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
However, I do think that it would be good to have somewhere to record our thoughts about the text when we're actually studying it. Only then do we know exactly what the problems were and what we considered as possible solutions. Unless we can write down all our thoughts, some are bound to be lost (though younger translators may not have the same problems, I admit).
Perhaps there could be a personal comments area that is not published until after submissions close, and then only after review: things that appeared to be problems may have been resolved by then.
Don't know whether that would work in practice, but it's a thought.
Interesting thought!
| | | | | Thanks, Samuel | Oct 18, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
So we can only vote, but we can't comment (not on individual segments, and not on the translation as a whole), right? It seems a bit silly, because if I see good and bad translations within a single entry, I can't say so... I can simply "vote for the best of the worst". At the very least it would have been great to be able to discuss the translations (or comment on them) as whole translation, or even to comment on all entries at the same time, in a single comment space.
We'll add the ability to comment on segments. And, maybe in the next go-round, we'll probably restore the sort of tagging functionality that existed before.
PS. And, as with previous contests, I'm not able to vote for the best entry...
Try it again in a minute...
... should be possible now.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Posting was removed by user | | Commenting on source and the small language-pair issue | Oct 19, 2012 |
I think the "commenting on the source text" feature is a good idea, BUT ONLY AFTER submission is closed in ALL languages.
The reason is simple.
This is a TRANSLATION contest. It supposed to evaluate translation skills. That means skills in the source language, skills in the target language, and skills in conversion from source to target. It is very important for a translator to understand the source text with all its idiomatic features. It is only fair that in a competition the diffe... See more I think the "commenting on the source text" feature is a good idea, BUT ONLY AFTER submission is closed in ALL languages.
The reason is simple.
This is a TRANSLATION contest. It supposed to evaluate translation skills. That means skills in the source language, skills in the target language, and skills in conversion from source to target. It is very important for a translator to understand the source text with all its idiomatic features. It is only fair that in a competition the difference between those who have an excellent grasp of the source language and those who don't, would show.
We had many discussions on ProZ.com about the importance of knowing the target language, but it is just as important to know the source. A translation contest should emphasize that, not the opposite. If we allow contestants to take advantage of the comments and correct their understanding of the source, then it is no longer an individual contest. The contestant should enter the names of all those whose comments helped him/her to understand the source. This is absurd, IMHO.
The reason I think the commenting is useful AFTER submission, is to assist in the voting. The comments floated to top based on collective wisdom are likely to represent the correct interpretation, and therefore help those who would have misunderstood the text. Since there is no restriction on who can vote (other than working in the pair), this may help reducing "stupid votes" (sorry for my language) - I mean votes by people who misunderstood the source.
As to the small language pair issue, and what to do when the number of submissions does not reach the minimum required:
I think there are multiple ways of handling it:
1. I am not in favor of extending the submission phase, mainly because this was what lead to endless contests in previous rounds that were practically never closed. Another reason is that I don't think it is fair to give more time to some people than to others, just because their language pair is under-populated or under-interested in contests.
However, if extension is desired, it should not be more than a few days, and the source commenting feature should be held back for the period of extension. In fact, all pairs should be halted until the extended ones are open, because otherwise if voting starts in other pairs while submission is open in small pairs, people could get help from other pair's published entries, and that again, beats the purpose of an individual contest.
2. Another approach is to simply admit that there are language pairs that are just too small for such contests (or a specific contest round), and close that pair without voting. The contestants could have a choice of having their entries displayed anyway. I may not be popular with this suggestion, but if we look around in the world, translation contests, even certifications have a limited scope in terms of in which languages they are available.
3. The third approach is to hold the contest, even if there are only 1-2 entries. This is an approach that many piano competitions take where my son participates. There are many different categories to enter (mainly based on the era of the music, and then broken down by playing level) and each awards gold, silver and bronze medals to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. Sometimes there are less than 3 contestants in a category. They still compete, and get judged. If they are good enough to merit a gold or a silver, they will get it. That means that even if there is only one contestant, it is not guaranteed that he/she will get a gold medal. The performance has to be at the prescribed level (minimum 85 points out of 100, I think) for the medal to be given. This is possible because each contestant gets points based on specified criteria. Sometimes there are shared placements, for example two silvers, if both of them were equally good. Sometimes nobody gets a gold or a silver. This may be something to think about, especially for the small pairs.
[Edited at 2012-10-19 17:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Thanks, Katalin | Oct 19, 2012 |
Good feedback / suggestions.
| | | | | Option to comment on translations coming soon. Meanwhile, rating experimentation is underway | Oct 19, 2012 |
Hi all,
A brief update.
English to Italian is in the "qualification" round. English to Afrikaans is in the "finals" round. All other pairs are on hold. (The idea behind this was to monitor and optimize things before moving forward.) Based on the feedback we have received so far, and the usage patterns we are observing, we feel that some additional work should be done before other pairs are moved to their next phase.
For one thing, the option to comment on t... See more Hi all,
A brief update.
English to Italian is in the "qualification" round. English to Afrikaans is in the "finals" round. All other pairs are on hold. (The idea behind this was to monitor and optimize things before moving forward.) Based on the feedback we have received so far, and the usage patterns we are observing, we feel that some additional work should be done before other pairs are moved to their next phase.
For one thing, the option to comment on translations will be provided. Apart from that, we are looking carefully at how the new rating approach (segment-based) is working out in Italian. To facilitate the comparison, we are going to make it possible to rate on both a per-segment basis and a per-entry basis. (Until now, in Italian, it has been possible only to rate segments. You will see the new rating option appear shortly, if you have not yet. To those who have rated segments, it will help a lot if you can go back and rate entries as well.)
We anticipate moving forward in pairs other than Afrikaans and Italian some time around the middle of next week.
Thanks for taking part in this "beta text" round of the contests. We appreciate your feedback and patience as we work to improve the contest platform.
Henry (posted as "joeuser" -- sorry, I was testing) ▲ Collapse
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Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
I think the "commenting on the source text" feature is a good idea, BUT ONLY AFTER submission is closed in ALL languages.
The reason is simple.
This is a TRANSLATION contest. It supposed to evaluate translation skills. That means skills in the source language, skills in the target language, and skills in conversion from source to target. It is very important for a translator to understand the source text with all its idiomatic features. It is only fair that in a competition the difference between those who have an excellent grasp of the source language and those who don't, would show.
We had many discussions on ProZ.com about the importance of knowing the target language, but it is just as important to know the source. A translation contest should emphasize that, not the opposite. If we allow contestants to take advantage of the comments and correct their understanding of the source, then it is no longer an individual contest. The contestant should enter the names of all those whose comments helped him/her to understand the source. This is absurd, IMHO.
And you think that the grading system is able to measure all that points you mentioned?
In the qualification round, members and/or users who have been registered on the site for at least one month and work in the same language pair in which they wish to vote will have the option of rating either "Quality of writing", "Accuracy of translation", or both. Those who are native speakers of the target language but do not work in the pair will be able to judge "Quality of writing" only.
Final voting in each pair will be open only to those members and users who have been registered on the site for at least 1 month who are native in the target language and work in the same language pair in which they wish to vote.
Accuracy of Translation and Quality of Writing.
Both are the artistic skills.
Which means that it is like a fingerprint.
So I found all opposite opinions very unreasonable here.
But as I am not a native speaker of English and use it only as a source language, I can not present a strong position here.
In painting classes some children tend to hide what they are painting.
I think everyone knows the reason why they do that and teachers in long terms try to change that behavior.
The same situation applies here.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Small languages will just have to be satisfied | Oct 19, 2012 |
Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
I think the "commenting on the source text" feature is a good idea, BUT ONLY AFTER submission is closed in ALL languages. The reason is simple. This is a translation CONTEST...
Sure, sure, but one has to balance all the things that you want to get with what you can get. The commenting you're referring to will only impact languages that had very few submissions in the first place. That is a risk that such translators will have to take, i.e. that the final push to get one or two extra submissions will involve some potential for cheating. However, even with this side-effect, the playing field is still level for all translators in that language combination, because all the translators can still update their translations, based on new information about the source text.
Yes, this is a translation contest, and yes, translation skill includes the skill to analyse the source text, but the contest is made no less competitive by making available commentary on the text. For example, if ProZ.com had decided to give us not only the test text but also a full commentary of it, the competition would have been equally stiff. The contest is not to see who fails to grasp all the finer points of the text, but who is able to reproduce those points most eloquently.
I don't think translators of smaller languages are unaware that their languages are smaller. If the process is made known beforehand (i.e. that smaller languages will be closed after commentary has already begun for the larger languages), then no-one from a small language will be surprised.
1. I am not in favor of extending the submission phase, mainly because this was what lead to endless contests in previous rounds that were practically never closed.
Agreed. If ProZ.com does not do something really spectacular to encourage members in smaller languages to participate, then simply extending the submission phase serves no purpose. It is not because they did not have enough time to do the translations that they did not submit an entry.
So perhaps ProZ.com should create a soft deadline, at which time translators in language pairs that don't have enough submissions receive extra warnings or extra communication. Then, when the hard deadline passes, it then applies to everyone.
3. The third approach is to hold the contest, even if there are only 1-2 entries.
I rather favour this approach, too. If there are only 2 entries, why can't we vote for which one is the best?
One idea might be that if there are fewer than e.g. 5 entries in a language, then we can vote only for the best (and not for the best, 2nd best and 3rd best).
The problem is that if your translation is the only one, or one of only two or three, it is impossible for profile viewers to tell if your translation was any good.
A solution to that might be to allow users to give submissions a score of 1-10, without having to leave any comments. 10 would mean it is the most beautiful translation ever, 5 would mean that it is technically error-free but nothing to write home about, and 1 would mean it is among the worst translations ever. This scoring system can apply to small languages only, or to large languages also (I'm not sure what would be popular). A translator should be able to opt out from being scored, if he wishes. The big advantage of such a scoring system is that it would allow profile visitors to see not only that the translator had submitted an entry, but also relatively how good that entry was.
[Edited at 2012-10-19 19:49 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Will this be added this time or not? | Oct 19, 2012 |
Henry Dotterer wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
So we can only vote, but we can't comment (not on individual segments, and not on the translation as a whole), right? We'll add the ability to comment on segments.
Will this ability be added for this contest, or only for the next contest?
| | | | | Comments due out shortly | Oct 19, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Henry Dotterer wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
So we can only vote, but we can't comment (not on individual segments, and not on the translation as a whole), right? We'll add the ability to comment on segments. Will this ability be added for this contest, or only for the next contest?
This one. Should be out shortly.
| | | | Sean McDonald
United States
Local time: 11:33
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Commenting on translation available | Oct 20, 2012 |
Hi, I just wanted to post a quick status update that you can now comment on the translations, and a few new features to the commenting system as a whole.
As it has been expressed in this forum, there has been the desire to note something when agreeing or disagreeing. You now have that option. When you agree, you will be presented with an optional input box that asks you for a note. Also, if you have agreed/disagreed but did not leave a note you will be presented with an "Add note" o... See more Hi, I just wanted to post a quick status update that you can now comment on the translations, and a few new features to the commenting system as a whole.
As it has been expressed in this forum, there has been the desire to note something when agreeing or disagreeing. You now have that option. When you agree, you will be presented with an optional input box that asks you for a note. Also, if you have agreed/disagreed but did not leave a note you will be presented with an "Add note" option.
When viewing a comment, you will now see a down arrow if it has any agrees or disagrees. This will allow you to see details about the comment, including notes from those agreeing/disagreeing.
Also, something we thought may be useful. On the source notes, you will be able to rank by the normal agrees and disagrees, or agrees and disagrees only by native speakers of that source language.
On the ratings page, you will now see the top 4 source note comments (with an expandable section to give you full access to those comments just like on the source notes page)
You will also be presented with the notes on the translations, which works the same way as the source notes.
I hope you find these improvements useful, and effective when rating the translations. ▲ Collapse
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