| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Voting is inconsistent in English to Chinese and English to Portuguese Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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Ligia Dias Costa 
Portugal
Local time: 08:05
English to Portuguese
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SITE LOCALIZER
Both José Henrique and Fernanda are right.
What I mean is that I would NEVER translate into BR PT as I am EUR PT. We do not write the same nouns, the same verb tenses, and there are a lot of expressions that we do not use as the same.
In the contest, I have noticed several disagrees based on language variant. What I believe is that any informed person can perfectly see that the translation was done by a Brasilian or a Portuguese translator. And should not rate or "dis... See more Both José Henrique and Fernanda are right.
What I mean is that I would NEVER translate into BR PT as I am EUR PT. We do not write the same nouns, the same verb tenses, and there are a lot of expressions that we do not use as the same.
In the contest, I have noticed several disagrees based on language variant. What I believe is that any informed person can perfectly see that the translation was done by a Brasilian or a Portuguese translator. And should not rate or "dislike" it based on language variants.
However, reading the likes and dislikes tags, that's what happened. I can demonstrate this.
Several people disliked "polícias" saying that the correct word is "policiais". In EUR PT "polícias" are police officers and "policiais" is the adjective referring to police. However in BR PT that is perfectly correct.
Henry, to sum up, this is the kind of question we had in job posting (solved with language variants BR-PT and EUR-PT) and that we have in KudoZ that so many "wars" started between members. Now, these do not exist any more, as answer posters have decided to accept the answer they choose and enrich ourselves with the contributes of the other language variant!
Ligia Dias Costa ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks, José Henrique | Dec 9, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
This is a long-standing issue on Proz. I remained a free user for years here because I felt that it was a waste of time bidding for jobs where the poster was unable to decide or state which variant of the Portuguese language they needed. It was an uphill battle - I lost it - because Proz didn't want to open the door to mandatory selection of variant on jobs, fearing it would shatter the Spanish marketplace to many tiny pieces.
I never heard that before, the part about "shattering" the Spanish marketplace. There may be someone at ProZ.com who holds that position (it would surprise me), but that has not dictated our policy as to language variants. But that is a different topic.
I saw it, thank you.
The bottom line is:
- Portuguese is one and the same language as source. Both Brazilian and Portuguese constitutions clearly state so.
- As target, Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese should be treated as two separate languages
In a nutshell, supporting evidence says that, in Portuguese:
- Any speaker of one variant - though at some risk of misunderstanding, and occasional need of a dictionary - will read and understand text written in the other variant.
- No sensible client will ever hire professional translation services into the "wrong" variant.
I reckon that this whole situation may be difficult to envision by anyone who doesn't understand the language, but that's what happens in reality.
All of the above is easy enough to understand, you have put it clearly and I don't disagree. Thanks for posting this.
None of that changes the fact that we are left with the practical challenge of discerning from highly mixed ratings which of the entries deserve to be finalists, though...
In any case, thanks for all the feedback, folks. We'll make a decision and I'll post.
| | | | | Thanks, Ligia | Dec 9, 2008 |
Ligia Dias Costa wrote:
Henry, to sum up, this is the kind of question we had in job posting (solved with language variants BR-PT and EUR-PT) and that we have in KudoZ that so many "wars" started between members. Now, these do not exist any more, as answer posters have decided to accept the answer they choose and enrich ourselves with the contributes of the other language variant!
Thanks for this feedback, too!
| | | | Carla Araújo
Portugal
Local time: 08:05
English to Portuguese
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Ligia Dias Costa wrote:
In the contest, I have noticed several disagrees based on language variant. What I believe is that any informed person can perfectly see that the translation was done by a Brasilian or a Portuguese translator. And should not rate or "dislike" it based on language variants.
I think that's precisely what happened.
After reading all the "likes" and "dislikes", I suppose that the entries in PT-PT have received higher rates from Portuguese voters and lower rates from Brazilian voters and vice-versa, hence the inconsistency.
Whatever you decide now, please consider having separate contests for both variants in the future. There's a very interesting discussion on the following link (feedback session):
http://por.proz.com/?sp=contests&sp_mode=past_contests&sp_sub_mode=view_language&ctlid=224&from_url=past_contests
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| Thanks, Carla! | Dec 9, 2008 |
Thanks, Carla. I had not read this (and by the way, Romina has taken over contests from Flor). The voting pattern we see is consistent with the comments made there.
| | | | wonita (X)
China
Local time: 03:05
Henry D wrote: Bin Tiede wrote: Denyce Seow wrote:
This is a very small sub-community. I am just afraid if we split it up into SC and TC, we will not get enough participation in TC (at least not enough for the voting part). There is only one entry submitted in traditional Chinese, two have converted their characters and submitted in both simplified and traditional Chinese. That is helpful to know. Is it your guess that voters are also working mostly in SC?
Most comments in Likes/Deslikes are made in simplified Chinese.
| | | | | Additional info | Dec 9, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
None of that changes the fact that we are left with the practical challenge of discerning from highly mixed ratings which of the entries deserve to be finalists, though...
There might be a solution via software: weighted averages.
Geographical location of both contestants and evaluators can be ascertained from the Proz database. One way to sort that out would be to duplicate Brazilian's votes on Brazilians, and likewise duplicate European PT speakers on European PT speakers.
For instance, I am Brazilian. Add one Brazilian "ghost" giving exactly my votes, but only those I gave to Brazilian contestants. Repeat the process for all Brazilian evaluators. Then do exactly the same for each of the non-Brazilian* evaluators on the non-Brazilian contestants only.
*FYI all other - except Brazil - former colonies of Portugal use the European variant, or something closer to it.
A software exercise could show if things do get sharper or not.
As a suggestion for the next contest, maybe each contestant should enter their language variant. Likewise, evaluators should do the same. Whenever these match, points given are doubled. Of course, everything is based on averages, not the raw score.
| | | | | Update on English to Portuguese | Dec 10, 2008 |
Hi folks,
Thanks for all of the feedback and suggestions.
A more detailed analysis of ratings on the top ten entries in English to Portuguese has produced interesting results.
As was suggested, in order to investigate the effect of language variants, we looked at ratings entered by those in Brazil on entries coming from members in Brazil and Portugal, respectively, and then for comparison looked at ratings enter for both by those in Portugal.
What we found was striking:
* Brazilian entries score a full point higher among raters in Brazil than they do among raters in Portugal.
* Portuguese entries score 8/10ths of a point higher among raters in Portugal than they do among raters in Brazil.
If by any chance that gap doesn't sound large, it is very large. To give some sense of just how significant it is, consider that the spread from top to bottom of the “top 10” is less than half a point.
Furthermore:
* Every entry from Brazil (among the top ten, I mean) did better among raters from Brazil than it did among raters from Portugal. (And it was never even close.)
* Every entry from Portugal did better among raters from Portugal than it did among raters from Brazil. (Again, it was never close.)
Now, this might all have been manageable. It might have been possible to make an adjustment in the way suggested by José. If we saw that {the entry from Brazil that raters in Brazil liked best}, was also {the entry from Brazil that raters from Portugal liked best}, then we could have considered doing some sort of a weighting or adjustment for the fact that there a shift was absorbed in the average rating.
The problem is that it was not a shift. It may have even been an inversion. Remarkably (remarkable at least in my opinion; perhaps not remarkable to Portuguese speakers), we see that:
* The entry rated highest by raters in Portugal (among the top ten) is the one rated lowest (among the top ten) by raters in Brazil.
* The entry rated highest by raters in Brazil (among the top ten) is the one rated lowest by raters in Portugal (among the top ten).
If one were to rely only on ratings from those in Brazil, the entry that raters in Portugal liked best could have been "ruled out".
In light of the difference that locale makes, I believe the proper approach for the future would be what a number of you have already suggested (and known to be best): to divide the English to Portuguese competition into two, one for Brazilian and one for European Portuguese.
I'll make another post regarding what I think should be done in the current contest.
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| Remarkably expected | Dec 10, 2008 |
Henry D wrote: A more detailed analysis of ratings on the top ten entries in English to Portuguese has produced interesting results. But even the order in which raters from the two locales "sort" entries does not show agreement. In fact, remarkably (remarkable at least in my opinion; perhaps not remarkable to Portuguese speakers), we see that: * The entry rated highest by raters in Portugal (among the top ten) is the one rated lowest (among the top ten) by raters in Brazil.
* The entry rated highest by raters in Brazil (among the top ten) is the one rated lowest by raters in Portugal (among the top ten).
Henry,
Your attempts would be pure gold in the hands of a competent Portuguese language researcher. (Not me, for sure!) Keep them, as the contest was an impollute sample. Nobody was forewarned not to like/dislike outside their own variant; I did it on my own, don't know how many others did the same.
The first - rather sketchy - conclusion we could draw from the above is that in PT there is possibly a mutual linear correlation between how much a writer stretches out of their language variant, and how much people from the other variant will tend to "like" the outcome. This would be a very important input to outsourcers who answer "Whatever!" when inquired about which Portuguese variant they want.
As it's one and the same language, being PT-PT the "original" one, in writing it may sometimes seem "old fashoned" to PT-BR-speakers, while (I guess) it may sound sometimes "futuristic" (I mean science-fictionish) to PT-PT-speakers. When Brazil was discovered by the Portuguese in 1500, the Americas were the cultural equivalent to what today is outer space.
The timing is perfect. In a few weeks, actually Jan. 1st, at least in Brazil, a formal agreement between all Portuguese-speaking nations will take effect to unify spelling, but it won't change any other aspect of using the language.
I know it's definitely weird for people who don't speak Portuguese, but that's how it is.
| | | | Ligia Dias Costa
Portugal
Local time: 08:05
English to Portuguese
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SITE LOCALIZER | Thanks Henry! | Dec 10, 2008 |
* The entry rated highest by raters in Brazil (among the top ten) is the one rated lowest by raters in Portugal (among the top ten).
As far as I am concerned, this is not surprising as terms and ways of saying things are so different. So, if a translation is very good in Brasil, it is normal that in Portugal would be of a very low quality, in a strange language (sometimes as if it was done by a non native speaker, i.e. a Spaniard writing in Portuguese).
(Don't get me wrong, I am saying it seems - not it is. I love brasilian variant, I learn a lot from brasilian colleagues and I interact with them a lot)
One of the services I have been doing lately is localizing Brasilian translations into EUR PT and let me tell you that my price for that is just slightly below my standard translation price for EN-PT.
Thanks again for all these efforts in our rich, rich language!
Ligia Dias Costa
[Editado em 2008-12-10 12:10 GMT]
| | | | | True, José Henrique | Dec 10, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Henry,
Your attempts would be pure gold in the hands of a competent Portuguese language researcher. (Not me, for sure!) Keep them, as the contest was an impollute sample.
I will. Anyone who reads this and would like the data for research purposes (later, after the contest is closed), please ask.
The first - rather sketchy - conclusion we could draw from the above is that in PT there is possibly a mutual linear correlation between how much a writer stretches out of their language variant, and how much people from the other variant will tend to "like" the outcome.
That may very well be.
This would be a very important input to outsourcers who answer "Whatever!" when inquired about which Portuguese variant they want.
I agree that one could draw at least that conclusion from this.
| | | | Denyce Seow
Singapore
Local time: 15:05
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
| Most voters work with SC | Dec 11, 2008 |
My guess is that, Henry. Hong Kong Chinese, Taiwanese Chinese and mainland China Chinese are different from one another. However I don't know how feasible it is to split into TC and SC. We don't differentiate between American English and British English in the into-English contests, right?? Why aren't there problems with voting then? 
Denyce
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Silvia Aquino
Brazil
Local time: 04:05
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| The opposite is also true! | Dec 12, 2008 |
[quote]Ligia Dias Costa wrote:
[quote]
As far as I am concerned, this is not surprising as terms and ways of saying things are so different. So, if a translation is very good in Brasil, it is normal that in Portugal would be of a very low quality, in a strange language (sometimes as if it was done by a non native speaker, i.e. a Spaniard writing in Portuguese).
(Don't get me wrong, I am saying it seems - not it is. I love brasilian variant, I learn a lot from brasilian colleagues and I interact with them a lot)
Ligia,
The same occurs when I read translations in PT-PT: they sound very weird. One example is the Skype Portuguese version we have here. Some parts of it are very funny. It´s the same language in many ways, but it developed in different ways in each country, may it be Brazil, Portugal or other former colonies.
| | | | Ligia Dias Costa
Portugal
Local time: 08:05
English to Portuguese
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
[quote]silvia367325 wrote:
[quote]Ligia Dias Costa wrote:
As far as I am concerned, this is not surprising as terms and ways of saying things are so different. So, if a translation is very good in Brasil, it is normal that in Portugal would be of a very low quality, in a strange language (sometimes as if it was done by a non native speaker, i.e. a Spaniard writing in Portuguese).
(Don't get me wrong, I am saying it seems - not it is. I love brasilian variant, I learn a lot from brasilian colleagues and I interact with them a lot)
Ligia,
The same occurs when I read translations in PT-PT: they sound very weird. One example is the Skype Portuguese version we have here. Some parts of it are very funny. It´s the same language in many ways, but it developed in different ways in each country, may it be Brazil, Portugal or other former colonies.
... and that's the FUN of it!!!
| | | | axies
Australia
Local time: 16:35
English
+ ...
Henry D wrote:
Hi all,
We are in the process of closing out the qualification round. Mostly, things are in order, with almost all pairs showing the type of voting pattern one would expect: a few entries that rose to the top having a bunch of relatively high ratings*, followed by a bunch of entries with mixed results, and then finally a few entries having received mostly lower scores.
That is the case in all but 2 of the pairs that had qualification voting.** But there are two pairs in which a smooth continuum like that described above is not observed: English to Chinese, and English to Portuguese. In those pairs, results are mixed throughout the sorted list; the entries at the top have a good number of low ratings to go along with their high ones, and the ones at the bottom sometimes collect high ratings. (Chinese and Portuguese to English, in contrast, have more or less regular patterns.)
Is the issue language variants? If so, what should be done? Shall we allow contestants to self-identify their language variant, and choose a winner for each variant? What would the variants be in Chinese?
If the issue is not language variants, what would it be?
Your input would be appreciated.
Henry
* There is sometimes an odd vote of 1 / 1, which in an otherwise highly rated entry stands out like a sore thumb. When we see that, we investigate. If a pattern of indiscriminate voting is found (ex. ratings of 1 for all of the entries in a pair), the results for that pair are recalculated with the offender's votes ignored.
** Well, a few pairs need more votes to firm up the patterns. We are leaving them open while dealing with this issue...
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