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Can we have an opt-out/deletion for ProzPay on our profiles?
Thread poster: Katalin Szilárd

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 03:35
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you, Mike Sep 24

Mike Donlin wrote:

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

The first what we ask: to have an option whether we want to show ProzPay on our profile or not.
Actually any shown payment methods should be totally optional. So there should be an opt-out button for the payment methods as well.


We are working to adjust this today based on your feedback. I will try to update this post with any changes.

Mike


Thank you very much, Mike.


 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
Even if I did accept it Sep 24

Even if I did accept Proz Pay, I would not want a public payment link in my profile, as it could lead to the loss of high fees (I consider 5% a high fee) compared to other payment methods available, such as SEPA transfer (0%), other domestic bank transfer (0%) and TransferWise ( < 1%), if a client were to conclude that it was fine just to use that link without asking.

That is why I do not have a link to my PayPal payment URL on my website or give clients a list of payment methods to
... See more
Even if I did accept Proz Pay, I would not want a public payment link in my profile, as it could lead to the loss of high fees (I consider 5% a high fee) compared to other payment methods available, such as SEPA transfer (0%), other domestic bank transfer (0%) and TransferWise ( < 1%), if a client were to conclude that it was fine just to use that link without asking.

That is why I do not have a link to my PayPal payment URL on my website or give clients a list of payment methods to choose from.

We are in a very competitive market and thus need to keep our payment fees as low as possible. A public link could increase our costs or reduce our competitiveness.

An online retailer selling widgets has no other choice than letting the consumer choose between the payment methods offered, but translators are not widget retailers.

The fraction of payments I receive through high-fee channels such as PayPal is minimal, so why would I want to pay 5% for Proz Pay (or let the client pay it, increasing the total cost, and in addition to any commission) when I pay 0% or 1% on nearly all turnover?

[Edited at 2019-09-24 14:56 GMT]
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Mike Donlin
Local time: 21:35
SITE STAFF
Public payment link in profile Sep 24

This was mentioned in an update earlier in the thread, but adding here as well so that those following get the update. If you have not added the ProZ*Pay payment preferences, the link will not appear to the public. This was the original concern brought about in this forum thread.

I learned a little more about the history of the ProZ.com profile today as well, so thank you to all who brought up the concern. I believe there are more changes that will allow for some personalization of
... See more
This was mentioned in an update earlier in the thread, but adding here as well so that those following get the update. If you have not added the ProZ*Pay payment preferences, the link will not appear to the public. This was the original concern brought about in this forum thread.

I learned a little more about the history of the ProZ.com profile today as well, so thank you to all who brought up the concern. I believe there are more changes that will allow for some personalization of this area coming soon.

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
An online retailer selling widgets has no other choice than letting the consumer choose between the payment methods offered, but translators are not widget retailers.


I found the quoted statement interesting and is great feedback. You do have a choice and that is a benefit of making relationships via ProZ.com.

Mike
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Thomas T. Frost
 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
Thanks Sep 24

Thanks for sorting it out swiftly, Mike. The link is no longer visible in my profile, forced visitor view or not.

Of course there are many outstanding questions related to the system, as I've already mentioned, but that's a different debate.

There is very little information at https://go.proz.com/language-professionals-get-paid-your-way-wit
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Thanks for sorting it out swiftly, Mike. The link is no longer visible in my profile, forced visitor view or not.

Of course there are many outstanding questions related to the system, as I've already mentioned, but that's a different debate.

There is very little information at https://go.proz.com/language-professionals-get-paid-your-way-with-proz-pay and no link to further information.

It also doesn't say if ProZ is now a payment service provider (the EU term), in which case there would be very specific regulations to comply with in each jurisdiction where the service is available.

Samuel said a payment was supposed to be made to ProZ's bank account. So what happens if the company becomes insolvent? How do people get their money then? Is that money protected in any way or will it be lost?

What happens in case of fraud, chargeback, etc.?

Etc., etc.

I want clarity before I start using a payment system. I have nothing against your efforts to provide new services for translators as long as they are optional, but ProZ Pay is way too murky for my taste. I have no reason to believe you would deliberately design anything to cause problems, but payments are a complicated area, and lack of experience is enough to cause problems. I just like transparency. In Proz Pay, there's none.

I'm not expecting answers here and now. This is not the place and time. But you asked why some wouldn't want to use it. This is a part of the answer.
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Sheila Wilson
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Philip Lees
Katalin Szilárd
Stephanie Busch
Teresa Borges
 

Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:35
Member (2018)
French to English
. Sep 25

Katalin Szilárd wrote:


An opt-out button should be added to ProzPay and all payment methods.



On the contrary.
This should be a thing that should only appear on your profile if you have specifically opted in for it!
I had no idea this even existed. I created my profile a while back and have barely looked at it since.
Thank you for your vigilance Katalin.


Philip Lees
Teresa Borges
Thomas T. Frost
 

Mihai Badea (X)
Luxembourg
Local time: 03:35
Member (Feb 2019)
English to Romanian
+ ...
What about a beta version for a limited number of users, next time? Sep 26

Mike Donlin wrote:

I learned a little more about the history of the ProZ.com profile today as well, so thank you to all who brought up the concern. I believe there are more changes that will allow for some personalization of this area coming soon.

Mike


You are the Vice President of Proz.com, Mike. You are bound to know the history of Proz.com. Learning it in the process might be a bit risky.

Rolling out ProzPay for all accounts was an error. Since money was created, as evidenced in the above discussion, this might have already become a matter for the financial authorities.


Teresa Borges
 

Mike Donlin
Local time: 21:35
SITE STAFF
Option to hide ProZ*Pay on profile available Sep 26

The option to hide the ProZ*Pay link on your profile is now available. The link to allow for outsourcers to setup payments quickly will not be shown on a profile if ProZ*Pay preferences have not been entered. If these payment preferences have been entered, the profile owner may hide the link to ProZ*Pay by choosing hide from the profile itself or clicking into the Financial tab part of the Profile Updater.

hide-ProZPay

Addressing some of the other items:

    The link to ProZ*Pay has helped a number of freelancers get paid faster - especially from direct clients. There are many cases where translation is requested outside of a traditional LSP (end clients) or fast payment is promised as part of an urgent job. ProZ*Pay has been able to help facilitate those transactions.


    Another popular use case has been the outsourcer who wants to pay with PayPal while the freelancer cannot accept it. That was described in this blog post in late July: https://go.proz.com/blog/how-to-use-paypal-for-individual-prozpay-payments


    We have also worked with outsourcers to clear non-payment reports through the ProZ*Pay link. Sometimes there are failed processes that result in non-payment. Giving an easy way to get the money to a specific person (without waiting for an accounting department for example) has helped both sides renew relationships ... and most importantly got the service provider paid.


    Feedback from the test is appreciated. It is true that the bank transfer process is not yet automated. For a company, this has also meant we can work together to fund many payments at once. Samuel was not charged the one cent and there is a process for canceling that payment. We can certainly work on the wording of the email received. In a typical transaction, ProZ*Pay would have reached out regarding Samuel's setup payment and made sure Katalin had a way she wanted to receive the funds.


Thank you again for the initial feedback on what appeared on the profile. I hope this adjustment to hide helps those who need it hidden. The discussion has helped the platform and brought about some additional interest in ProZ*Pay.

Mike


Thomas T. Frost
 

Cristina Crişan  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 04:35
Member
English to Romanian
+ ...
bug? Sep 27

I clicked the hide link and now my entire profile appears to be hidden! A blank page is displayed instead. I tried multiple times, but no luck.

 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 03:35
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mike Sep 27

Mike Donlin wrote:
Samuel was not charged the one cent and there is a process for canceling that payment.


The reason why I was not charged the one cent is because I did not transfer the one cent. The instructions I received was to transfer one cent to ProZpay's American bank account, and I never did that. The payment was not cancelled by anyone (since there wasn't a payment), but the ProZpay transaction itself was cancelled after a day (I assume that is what you mean by "the payment was cancelled"), even though I did not request cancellation -- but I understand now that ProZpay is mostly a manual process and that the cancellation was done by a human, so that's perfectly all right.

We're not trying to misunderstand the wording, but some of the wording and the way the system is set up can be confusing.

prozpay1

1. "Bank transfer (0% fee, invoice sent)": Firstly, there is rarely a 0% fee when doing a bank transfer. So, the "0% fee" here must mean something else, but what? From what I can see (based on what happens when I click the various options), this "0% fee" means that there will be no additional fees to anyone else beyond the banking fees that the client would ordinarily pay when using a bank transfer to send the money.

Secondly, does "invoice sent" mean that bank transfer is only an option if the translator has sent an invoice to the client, or does it mean that you're only allowed to choose this option if ProZ.com has sent an invoice to the client (i.e. an invoice for the transfer, not an invoice for the translation)? When I tested the system, I chose this first option, but I was never given the opportunity to upload a copy of an invoice (i.e. to prove that the translator had indeed sent me an invoice), so really not sure what this all means.

2. The tense used in "You're paying fees" is unusual. I understand that this may be how some people speak, but in print it becomes a generalised statement and does not mean "you will pay the fee", which is what I suspect it is intended to mean. I also understand that plurals are often used in English to generalise a statement, but in this particular case using the plural "fees" when (I suspect) there is only fee (namely the "convenience fee"), makes it doubly confusing.

(Added: I've just noticed that there is indeed more than one fee if the payer chooses something other than bank transfer, but if you choose bank transfer, there is only one fee... or is there?)

Perhaps the designer of this form was trying to save space. I believe some of the confusion is caused by the fact that the form is trying to combine multiple steps into a single step:
a) that there is an additional administration fee of 5%, and
b) who will pay all of the fees in the entire process.

3. It is unclear whether "PayPal (3.75% fee)" means that the usual fee charged by PayPal will be capped at 3.75% (i.e. there will be no further PayPal fees for the recipient) or that ProZpay charges an additional 3.75% for the fact that PayPal is chosen as an option (i.e. the recipient will still have to pay the usual PayPal fees in addition to this 3.75%).

4. I fully understand (when looking at the process using round numbers like USD 100) what the author of this form was trying to say when he wrote "$129.62 (+5% fee)". He meant "$129.62 (which includes a 5% fee)". But that is not what "$129.62 (+5% fee)" usually means in print. "$129.62 (+5% fee)" means "$136.10 in total".

5. In this form, the translator is sometimes called the recipient and sometimes called the payee. I'm I understand the need for elegant variation in paragraph text, but in a web form like this it is better to use a terms consistently, to avoid the reader thinking that the different terms refer to different parties.



[Edited at 2019-09-27 07:08 GMT]


Daniela Zambrini
Thomas T. Frost
 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
Cookies? Sep 27

Cristina Crişan wrote:

I clicked the hide link and now my entire profile appears to be hidden! A blank page is displayed instead. I tried multiple times, but no luck.


While waiting for a reply from support, you could try to delete all proz.com cookies in your browser and also try another browser. I can see your public profile.

Of course, leaving it as it is would be an effective protection against sending money to scammers through ProZ Pay.


 

Cristina Crişan  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 04:35
Member
English to Romanian
+ ...
issue solved Sep 27

Thomas T. Frost wrote:
While waiting for a reply from support, you could try to delete all proz.com cookies in your browser and also try another browser. I can see your public profile.

I tried three different browsers, but could only see my profile if I was logged out of my account. After logging in, I got a blank screen or an error message. I contacted support and all works fine now.


Of course, leaving it as it is would be an effective protection against sending money to scammers through ProZ Pay.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
Joke Sep 27

Cristina Crişan wrote:


Of course, leaving it as it is would be an effective protection against sending money to scammers through ProZ Pay.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


Just a silly Friday joke. If your profile is blank, you can't do anything with it, so it prevents you from sending money via ProZ Pay, also to scammers.


 
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