Only members can post in this forum | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Encouraged fields Thread poster: Gerard de Noord
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lexical 
Spain
Local time: 22:29
Portuguese to English
| All I can say is... | Dec 28, 2007 |
... that I've seen this coming for a long time.
Business Strategy: first, attract a large number of translation/interpretation professionals by offering useful and valued services. Build a loyal community.
Second, market that constituency (which doesn't belong to you) to (better paying) corporate customers. Force the translation/interpretation professionals into the mould that best serves your business purposes. Try to damp down any protests - if this doesn't work, simp... See more ... that I've seen this coming for a long time.
Business Strategy: first, attract a large number of translation/interpretation professionals by offering useful and valued services. Build a loyal community.
Second, market that constituency (which doesn't belong to you) to (better paying) corporate customers. Force the translation/interpretation professionals into the mould that best serves your business purposes. Try to damp down any protests - if this doesn't work, simply ignore them and do what you were planning to do anyway.
Thirdly, suppress all public dissent as it detracts from the marketability of Proz.com to the corporate sector.
Lastly, if you're unlucky, watch while your translator constituency bleeds away (as it has been doing).
Fortunately, I don't need the sort of outsourcers that Proz.com serves up to me, so I will complete such parts of my profile as I (yes, I) choose. If this means that my details are not circulated to dodgy outsourcers offering 0.0001 cents/word, that is something I must steel myself to live with somehow.
I have recently renewed my membership faut de mieux. If somebody founded a site like this that was controlled by and responded to the needs of its members, I know where my loyalty would lie. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 22:29
Italian to English
In memoriam | There are redundancies in the verification system | Dec 28, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Hi Giles,
I'm sure the WWA system was conceived with the best possible intentions but it has also opened a can of worms that has been discussed previously, and which I won't rehash here as it's not strictly on topic.
Hi Deborah,
As you say, and whatever its merits might be, the WWA system seems to have acquired a bad name, which in practice severely limits its utility. I agree that it could be quietly dropped. In any case, it is partially redundant in that it serves much the same function as the Project profile, ie providing a minimum of relatively objective verification by other members and by outsourcers.
My whole argument was directed at those newbies/wannabees that will do or say anything to get their profiles complete and that is what this initiative will encourage - more fraudulent/deceptive site content on a site that already has countless examples.
I really wouldn't lose any sleep over the chancers. Less cautious prospective clients might be tempted to try them, if only to see what they can get for not very much money, but serious outsourcers look for verification that goes beyond what a single translators' portal can provide, and will also seek personal recommendations or other credentials, such as published translations.
Claudia made a good point, though. It is quite conceivable that some translators may not wish, or be able, to solicit recommendations from their clients for all sorts of reasons. It would be nice to find other ways of verifying the quality of their work as objectively as possible and indicating it in their profiles.
Best,
Giles
[Edited at 2007-12-28 20:47]
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Giles Watson wrote:
I really wouldn't lose any sleep over the chancers.
... honest. When this overtaxed head hits the pillow, it's lights out immediately
It's just irksome to think it goes on. And that type of irritation boils over into some of the responses we've seen here today.
As you point out, serious outsourcers will hopefully find who they're looking for and know what value to place on the information that is available.
Have a good weekend and a fun-filled entry into 2008.
Debs
[Edited at 2007-12-29 02:05]
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Suppose you want to complete all the "encouraged fields" and you ask a WWA from a client who does not want/have time to make an entry, or is not listed in the Blueboard (since "For this section to be considered complete, obtain at least one WWA (willingness to work again) entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board")...Your profile will never be fully complete.
Moreover, I think that even you if you do submit a translation sample, some agencies will still ask you to take THEIR... See more Suppose you want to complete all the "encouraged fields" and you ask a WWA from a client who does not want/have time to make an entry, or is not listed in the Blueboard (since "For this section to be considered complete, obtain at least one WWA (willingness to work again) entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board")...Your profile will never be fully complete.
Moreover, I think that even you if you do submit a translation sample, some agencies will still ask you to take THEIR tests. ▲ Collapse
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Gerard de Noord
France
Local time: 22:29
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Enrique wrote:
Dear all,
ProZ,com is a venue, with tools for you to use (or not use) in the way that best suits you and your business. You decide what fields should be completed and the corresponding content.
On the other hand, The person with the need sets the parameters. Whether it be KudoZ, the forums or the jobs system, the person who has the need is given options for setting parameters and directing the flow of an exchange. For example, outsourcers using the directories to search for service providers are given the option of defining the parameters or sets of parameters to be used in the search. The feeling is that this approach, which may be the one most likely to ensure that needs are met, is appropriate for our collaborative community and service industry.
During 2008 the profiles will be revised to make them more user friendly and customizable, and to provide additional tools and opportunities to their owners and to the community.
Regards,
Enrique
Dear Enrique,
Venue is a vague concept. I see ProZ.com as an online marketplace where market vendors (translators and interpreters) sell their products to market-goers (private individuals, companies and contractors) and where market-goers find market vendors. ProZ.com is the market superintendent, not an easy task, for sure. You have to promote the marketplace itself, you have to expel all stallholders who cheat the market-goers or sell rotten market goods, you have to watch out for pickpockets and thieves, and you have to attract as many market-goers as possible. As I said, not an easy task, but the superintendent managed to set up the market, to make it renowned, to fill it with market vendors who actually pay for their market stalls and to attract the market-goers the vendors were looking for. Success!
Then the superintendent sat back and thought: wouldn't it be grand if not only the vendors would pay for the privilege to sell their goods on our market? Wouldn't it be a great idea to charge the market-goers an entrance fee to our market? Of course the stallholders will go berserk when they find out about the entrance fee to their market but we'll just sit still and let it blow over.
It all worked as planned and the superintendent was quite pleased about his decision but some of the market-goers complained: why should we pay you to buy here? It's still the same marketplace we visited before for free. The superintendent understood the validity of this point but looked at the steady flow of entrance fees the market-goers were generating and thought: I'll hire a marketing genius.
The marketing genius visited the market and saw what was wrong right away: the premium market goods weren't labelled as such and the premium clients had no way to find out what was premium and what was not. The genius wrote a report in which the word premium figured sixty times, often capitalised.
The superintendent made a short calculation and decided to visit each stall to encourage the market vendors to shout louder. Most of them followed this advice for a short while, but then they figured out that shouting doesn't pay when everybody is shouting. Some vendors continued shouting, others went back to their old ways of doing business.
The superintendent was exasperated and complained to the genius that there was no way to get the vendors to shout louder. Then the marketing genius suggested: let's make a game out of it, the loudest vendor will gain a free copy of Alchemy Catalyst 7.0. At that exact moment the superintendent decided to fire the marketing genius.
Regards,
Gerard
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 22:29
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | How to deal with a can o' worms? | Dec 29, 2007 |
Gerard de Noord wrote:... the premium market goods weren't labeled as such and the premium clients had no way to find out what was premium and what was not...
Make it smaller.
Regards
Vito
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Gerard de Noord wrote:
Dear Enrique,
Venue is a vague concept. I see ProZ.com as an online marketplace where market vendors (translators and interpreters) sell their products to market-goers (private individuals, companies and contractors) and where market-goers find market vendors. ProZ.com is the market superintendent, not an easy task, for sure. You have to promote the marketplace itself, you have to expel all stallholders who cheat the market-goers or sell rotten market goods, you have to watch out for pickpockets and thieves, and you have to attract as many market-goers as possible. As I said, not an easy task, but the superintendent managed to set up the market, to make it renowned, to fill it with market vendors who actually pay for their market stalls and to attract the market-goers the vendors were looking for. Success!
Then the superintendent sat back and thought: wouldn't it be grand if not only the vendors would pay for the privilege to sell their goods on our market? Wouldn't it be a great idea to charge the market-goers an entrance fee to our market? Of course the stallholders will go berserk when they find out about the entrance fee to their market but we'll just sit still and let it blow over.
It all worked as planned and the superintendent was quite pleased about his decision but some of the market-goers complained: why should we pay you to buy here? It's still the same marketplace we visited before for free. The superintendent understood the validity of this point but looked at the steady flow of entrance fees the market-goers were generating and thought: I'll hire a marketing genius.
The marketing genius visited the market and saw what was wrong right away: the premium market goods weren't labelled as such and the premium clients had no way to find out what was premium and what was not. The genius wrote a report in which the word premium figured sixty times, often capitalised.
The superintendent made a short calculation and decided to visit each stall to encourage the market vendors to shout louder. Most of them followed this advice for a short while, but then they figured out that shouting doesn't pay when everybody is shouting. Some vendors continued shouting, others went back to their old ways of doing business.
The superintendent was exasperated and complained to the genius that there was no way to get the vendors to shout louder. Then the marketing genius suggested: let's make a game out of it, the loudest vendor will gain a free copy of Alchemy Catalyst 7.0. At that exact moment the superintendent decided to fire the marketing genius.
Regards,
Gerard
A true modern-day Aesop in our midst.
This gets my vote for post of the year!
[Edited at 2007-12-29 10:39]
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lexical wrote:
If this means that my details are not circulated to dodgy outsourcers offering 0.0001 cents/word, that is something I must steel myself to live with somehow.
I know it's going to be hard, but hang in there. We'll set up a support group, if the going gets too tough
Good post!
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 22:29
Italian to English
In memoriam | Premium goods | Dec 29, 2007 |
Gerard de Noord wrote:
The marketing genius visited the market and saw what was wrong right away: the premium market goods weren't labelled as such and the premium clients had no way to find out what was premium and what was not. The genius wrote a report in which the word premium figured sixty times, often capitalised.
Hi Gerard,
Like you, I find the mechanisms by which "premium quality" is indicated on Proz to be rather limited but they are at least groping in the direction of objectivity. I would not to trust a marketplace in which it was the superintendent, and not the customers, who established which goods were of premium quality (the superintendent can of course legitimately sell premium access to the market itself).
Perhaps those Proz "stallholders" who prefer not to solicit comments from their clients - and I accept that there are many perfectly valid reasons for not wishing to do so - could propose other ways of certifying premium quality with some degree of objectivity.
I'm sure they'd be very welcome.
Cheers,
Giles
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 16:29
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
At first I didn't think this was going to affect me because I have completed all fields in my profile. However, I read some of the postings here and I'm having some concerns about whether this new criterion will serve its intended purpose. Debs made some valid points here that I'd like to quote.
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Come on guys, unless there is a way of verifying the information that we are now being effectively forced to provide, all you are doing is encouraging even more fraudulent and deceptive site content because newbies/wannabees and desperate types - who will allow themselves to be pushed around - will simply scramble to complete their profiles as soon as possible to stay in the running.
Leave it up to professional translators to market themselves how they see fit, within site rules.
imilarly, anyone can post a sample translation and claim it as their own. There are undoubtedly a number of those already posted and yet those are the individuals who will get called on first?[/quote]
Then Giles wrote:
I really wouldn't lose any sleep over the chancers. Less cautious prospective clients might be tempted to try them, if only to see what they can get for not very much money, but serious outsourcers look for verification that goes beyond what a single translators' portal can provide, and will also seek personal recommendations or other credentials, such as published translations.
I don't lose too much sleep over "newbies/wannabees" who provide false credentials either, but I do lose some because they appear every day; or maybe there's a new not-so-cautious outsourcer every day; either way, the result is the same: honest and qualified translators lose jobs every day. Sure, after the client gets a crappy translation he'll come to his senses and be more careful next time, but in the mean time the damage is done and it affects both the oursourcer and the qualified translator who lost the job. Again, this happens quite often so we're not talking about one oursourcer and one lost job.
Giles wrote that serious outsourcers will seek personal recommendations and other credentials such as published translations. On one hand this is comforting to know but on the other, if they feel the need to do this, it means that they don't trust the credentials they see in our profiles. So why do we include them in the first place? If we're going to have this new system we have to make sure that outsourcers trust it and that the information provided is accurate.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 22:29
Italian to English
In memoriam | As always, it depends | Dec 30, 2007 |
Maria Karra wrote:
Giles wrote that serious outsourcers will seek personal recommendations and other credentials such as published translations. On one hand this is comforting to know but on the other, if they feel the need to do this, it means that they don't trust the credentials they see in our profiles. So why do we include them in the first place?
Hi Maria,
Because you can never be too careful, or as they say in this part of the world, "fidarsi è bene, non fidarsi è meglio"
Our credentials are self-supplied and can therefore only ever be part of the picture.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with outsourcers seeking corroboration of claims posted on Proz. After all, if prospective clients find you through Proz, they're likely at the very least to google up your name.
On the whole, I'm optimistic about the way the site is going. I no longer get Proz-mediated enquiries from outsourcers whose first concern is price and I'm happy that prospective clients are increasingly able to home in on my specialisations. It would be nice to have some objective indication of quality as well so I'm willing to give the new filters a spin.
That said, WWA and similar devices are far from perfect. For one thing, I don't like the idea of translators being excluded simply because their clients are confidentiality-obsessed or because they're too shy to ask for an endorsement.
Φιλικά,
Giles
| | | | | It goes further ... | Dec 30, 2007 |
Maria Karra wrote:
Sure, after the client gets a crappy translation he'll come to his senses and be more careful next time, but in the mean time the damage is done and it affects both the oursourcer and the qualified translator who lost the job.
The outsourcer will come to his senses, but the question is how?
Based on his only experience of the "marketplace" (Proz), he'll most likely go looking for "stallholders" (translators) elsewhere - so it does affect us all.
After all, nobody goes back to a butcher who sells them rotten meat, hoping for better luck next time, do they?
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 22:29
Italian to English
In memoriam
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
The outsourcer will come to his senses, but the question is how?
Based on his only experience of the "marketplace" (Proz), he'll most likely go looking for "stallholders" (translators) elsewhere - so it does affect us all.
After all, nobody goes back to a butcher who sells them rotten meat, hoping for better luck next time, do they?
I honestly couldn't care less about outsourcers' psychological problems. The main thing is that the job should get done properly.
Only the most superficial of outsourcers will write off Proz (or any other translators' portal) simply because their first attempt at finding a translator was disappointing.
Personally, I am very happy about Proz as a source of colleagues who can do jobs that I am either unable or unwilling to accept myself. I don't act as an agency - all I do is forward the contact - but where I have been able to pass on work through Proz, the feedback has been very positive.
And specialisation is the key.
Happy New Year,
Giles
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