Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >
People should not be able to claim they are native speakers without verification. (Staff: Link)
Thread poster: Susan Welsh
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 22:50
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
It's all about BLAME May 7, 2018

Lian Pang wrote:

The market is competitive as it is. It will naturally flush out the bad ones.


Unfortunately no, it won't. The market won't naturally flush out the bad ones.

Now and then some client asks me to evaluate translation tests they received online. One of them had me doing it with about five dozen such tests in a short period of time, hence I have a diversified view on what's being offered in my language pair in the marketplace.

My empiric conclusion is that - at least in my pair - at around HALF of the Community Rates published by Proz, the overall quality delivered by human translation is equivalent to the raw output obtained from free, online, immediate Google Translate. Of course, the flaws will differ in their nature, but the overall quality - if bluntly graded on a 1-10 scale - will be roughly the same.

Therefore I expected that, as Google Translate asymptotically evolved to its max, it would flush out:
a) human translators accepting half of those Community Rates or less; and
b) the translation outsourcers who hire translators at this compensation level.

It doesn't take much browsing around to realize that this failed to happen; such deals still abound.

IMHO it's a matter of BLAME.

While the outsourcer can't sensibly blame free Google Translate (or any other automatic translation contrivance) for slipshod quality, they feel totally at ease to blame a grossly underpaid amateur for sloppy translation work!

Likewise, they want to preserve their right to BLAME bad translators by demanding native speakers. They assume that ANY native speaker who has learned a second language will be a competent translator into their mother language.

If their end-client complains about the poor quality of a translation into, say, Slobovian, their CYA act relies on alleging that It was done by a truly native Sloboviak, born and living in Sloburgstadt. Can't help it if those Slobs don't write properly in their own language!"

What is left unmentioned in their defense is that the poor Slob was paid US 3¢ per word, 30 days after end-of-month.
You get what you pay for.


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:50
German to English
Was finnword1's joke stupid or offensive or offensively stupid? May 7, 2018

I'm not sure what bothered Lincoln about finnword1's joke, but I still can't figure out what the punchline is.

If an English-speaking couple from Nebraska adopts a Finnish boy, will that boy grow up to be a native speaker of Finnish?
When I was a kid, people used to tell "Joe Mama" or "your mother" jokes (of course, I never personally engaged in that sort of awful behavior), but those jokes always involved multiple (that is, uncertain) fathers, so I don't think that's where th
... See more
I'm not sure what bothered Lincoln about finnword1's joke, but I still can't figure out what the punchline is.

If an English-speaking couple from Nebraska adopts a Finnish boy, will that boy grow up to be a native speaker of Finnish?
When I was a kid, people used to tell "Joe Mama" or "your mother" jokes (of course, I never personally engaged in that sort of awful behavior), but those jokes always involved multiple (that is, uncertain) fathers, so I don't think that's where the joke is meant to be going.
I suppose it could be aimed at butch lesbians who neglect their babies (like a good father) and whose partners carry the couples' baby, but that doesn't really make any more sense.
I don't think it is about the fact that many men don't take an active enough role in raising their children (and developing their language skills) ...

It's interesting to me how a "joke" that seems to make absolutely no sense is able to elicit mild support (or at least an emoticon and acknowledgement as a joke) and offense solely by means of keywords.

Or did I just not get the joke?
Collapse


 
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:50
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Mother tongue May 7, 2018

The term 'mother tongue' is inaccurate. Language is passed down from older children to younger children.

 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
more native mother tongue May 7, 2018

Michele, you're right for it's about one's proficiency--the language competence. However, if a C1+ CEFR certificate would do, then why care about her origin and nationality--an industry competition?

Also if they sift a language pairs question with paying* members to the bottom, it could trigger enormous changes--for better or worse.


P.S. Now the topic is gradually flowing from native vs. non-native into nat
... See more
Michele, you're right for it's about one's proficiency--the language competence. However, if a C1+ CEFR certificate would do, then why care about her origin and nationality--an industry competition?

Also if they sift a language pairs question with paying* members to the bottom, it could trigger enormous changes--for better or worse.


P.S. Now the topic is gradually flowing from native vs. non-native into native of the capital vs. native of the provinces, man of humor vs. internal fuzzy, and so on...
Collapse


 
BD00
BD00
United Kingdom
Chinese to English
+ ...
Lost in satire May 7, 2018

Michael Wetzel wrote:

I'm not sure what bothered Lincoln about finnword1's joke, but I still can't figure out what the punchline is.

...

Or did I just not get the joke?


Probably best understood as a bit of satire rather than a joke as such, finnword1's comment may well have been intended to poke fun at those who claim to have more than one 'mother tongue', and what sort of family background that would imply if taken literally, in an attempt to point out the absurdity of such claims.

Note the preference for 'mother tongue' equivalents in many languages as opposed to the English 'native/first language' - though I wouldn't know about Finnish.


 
Daniel Frisano
Daniel Frisano  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:50
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
Somebody please define native-ness May 7, 2018

1) The language(s) spoken in your family when you grew up?

2) The language(s) spoken in the country(ies) where you grew up?

3) The language(s) you spoke at primary school?

All these may or may not be the same language(s). I have an Israeli friend who lives in Cyprus, his son goes to an English school: 1 = HE, 2 = EL, 3 = EN.

The definition should be independent from proficiency. You can be proficient at the highest (C2) level, and still not be
... See more
1) The language(s) spoken in your family when you grew up?

2) The language(s) spoken in the country(ies) where you grew up?

3) The language(s) you spoke at primary school?

All these may or may not be the same language(s). I have an Israeli friend who lives in Cyprus, his son goes to an English school: 1 = HE, 2 = EL, 3 = EN.

The definition should be independent from proficiency. You can be proficient at the highest (C2) level, and still not be native-equivalent. You can breeze through top-level TOEFL with all A's and still be miles behind any decently educated English native.

Now, once we agree on a definition, how do we prove it?

[Edited at 2018-05-07 20:46 GMT]
Collapse


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 02:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
On defining "nativeness" May 7, 2018

Daniel Frisano wrote:
Somebody please define native-ness


There have been threads running into hundreds of replies dealing with this very issue, and it can be interesting to read the various opinions.

The simple answer is that different people define the concept differently, and ProZ.com's solution to this problem (before the current verification system) was to allow anyone who claimed to be a native speaker to claim it according to his own definition of it. This makes sense from a practical point of view, because even if we were all honest, we'd still evaluate our own nativeness according to our own definitions of it.

No affordable validation system will be able to catch out dishonest translators, so as with most information given by translators in their profiles, the translator's word was simply taken for it. If a translator claims on his profile page that he has X capability, then we can only assume that it is true until evidence is submitted to the contrary.

The definition should be independent from proficiency.


Of course you could argue that, but you can't ignore that nativeness is used by most people (clients and translators) as an indicator of proficiency.

(That does not mean a native person will necessarily have a higher proficiency than a non-native person or that one can be considered native simply because one has a certain proficiency.) Any definition of nativeness that does not answer questions about proficiency is of academic use only.

Now, once we agree on a definition, how do we prove it?


This has also been discussed many times, but as you say: to know how to prove it, you must first define it.

By the way:

The current native language verification system validates only native speech patterns, specifically in terms of speech patterns typical of the language's original region. I suspect the designers of the current system didn't read all those threads about what native language is, but simply used their own definition, which I will sum up as:

"a native speaker sounds like a native speaker".



[Edited at 2018-05-07 22:05 GMT]


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 09:50
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
What satire? May 8, 2018

BD00 wrote:

Michael Wetzel wrote:

I'm not sure what bothered Lincoln about finnword1's joke, but I still can't figure out what the punchline is.

...

Or did I just not get the joke?


Probably best understood as a bit of satire rather than a joke as such, finnword1's comment may well have been intended to poke fun at those who claim to have more than one 'mother tongue', and what sort of family background that would imply if taken literally, in an attempt to point out the absurdity of such claims.

Note the preference for 'mother tongue' equivalents in many languages as opposed to the English 'native/first language' - though I wouldn't know about Finnish.

The only thing that I can see being poked fun as is the term "mother tongue".

You can breeze through top-level TOEFL with all A's and still be miles behind any decently educated English native.

I'm actually not sure the average English native speaker can get full marks on the speaking portion of the test. You're essentially improvising a skit on the spot while dozens of people around you are speaking at the same time.

[Edited at 2018-05-08 04:47 GMT]


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:50
German to English
+ ...
competency - not "nativeness" (whatever that means) May 8, 2018

You might as well "claim" to have blond hair or a pet turtle. "Native speaker" is not what it's about professionally anyway. Either a person can translate competently or they can't.

 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 02:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Lincoln May 8, 2018

Lincoln Hui wrote:
I'm actually not sure the average English native speaker can get full marks on the speaking portion of the test. You're essentially improvising a skit on the spot while dozens of people around you are speaking at the same time.


I had a similar experience with the Dutch proficiency test. The headphones were not soundproof, so every time I needed to speak my answers, I could hear all the other candidates talking at the same time. Even after formulating an answer in my head before starting to speak, trying to say my own answer while hearing all very similar answers being said at the same time was difficult with a D. At first, I was certain that I had failed miserably.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Going native May 8, 2018

I know of one Prozian who grew up in the UK and moved to Italy when she was about 10, and who claims to be a native speaker of English. Technically that's correct but as a translator of complex documents, I doubt whether a 10-year-old girl would be able to rise to the occasion.

That's partly why I call myself "Tom in London": it signals that my target language (English) is bang up to date, and grown-up.

[Edited at 2018-05-08 10:24 GMT]


 
neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 02:50
Spanish to English
+ ...
They shouldn't, but they do May 8, 2018

The problem would be how to verify the claims. I think it would be a Sisyphean task for the staffers.
Fake native speaker claimers really get my goat too, but thankfully you can usually spot them a mile away.

Slightly off topic, perhaps there should be a rule for askers about providing sufficient context their kudos queries as well... Or perhaps staff keyboards could be fitted with some kind of electronic buzzer that zaps them with a mild shock through the keyboard...... See more
The problem would be how to verify the claims. I think it would be a Sisyphean task for the staffers.
Fake native speaker claimers really get my goat too, but thankfully you can usually spot them a mile away.

Slightly off topic, perhaps there should be a rule for askers about providing sufficient context their kudos queries as well... Or perhaps staff keyboards could be fitted with some kind of electronic buzzer that zaps them with a mild shock through the keyboard...
Collapse


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:50
Member (2004)
English to Italian
oh no... May 8, 2018

not the native speaker old chestnut again...

 
Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 02:50
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
And it's always the native English debate. May 8, 2018

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

not the native speaker old chestnut again...


There used to be a non-native speaker of Croatian answering thousands of KudoZ questions into Croatian, it was the most active KudoZ member in the pair. Gaining thousands of KudoZ points in this pair (towards Croatian). Now why they did this I have no idea, as it probably won't help them land any jobs into Croatian (providing everyone's looking for a native speaker). Did anybody open a forum thread about this complaining how they are clogging KudoZ in this pair? No, no voice or complaints. Simple market logic says that this KudoZ activity won't make them any more competitive in the pair.

Therefore, native English speakers, relax. Never mind what they do, if the client is looking for a native speaker and it matters to them, these people won't steal your jobs.

[Edited at 2018-05-08 13:47 GMT]


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:50
German to English
Legitimate issues May 8, 2018

Well, whining aside, I think there are also some legitimate issues here.

I can understand why Susan is upset that people who are (in retrospect) clearly incapable of translating well into English show up on the same page as her in directory searches.
The Misha states on his page that his native language is Russian, but it seems very clear to me that ProZ should be actively working on ways to nudge unthinking potential clients towards producing Russian-to-English search resul
... See more
Well, whining aside, I think there are also some legitimate issues here.

I can understand why Susan is upset that people who are (in retrospect) clearly incapable of translating well into English show up on the same page as her in directory searches.
The Misha states on his page that his native language is Russian, but it seems very clear to me that ProZ should be actively working on ways to nudge unthinking potential clients towards producing Russian-to-English search results that place him on the same page as Susan.
José clearly explains why he feels it is necessary to inaccurately claim English as a native language on his page and how he deals with the false hits this can lead to in directory searches.
I also think there is as much reason to generally doubt the adequate source-language proficiency of anyone who did nothing but study a language as there is to doubt the target-language proficiency of non-natives.

And most importantly: ProZ has actually done something about this since the last time it was discussed.
The native-language test they've devised seems very odd to me, but at least it is based on a (theoretically objective) verification system and not self-reporting. Having people record themselves talking for several minutes and then having volunteers pass them or fail them (according to clearly outlined standards, I presume) seems like a very imprecise way of determining whether they have sufficient active writing skills to translate into a given language. However, it can't be any more imprecise than self-reporting where egos and financial self-interest are involved.
I think the ability to add proficiency levels for languages has also been added somewhere (or is being considered). At least in German, it's possible to pass a C2 exam with nothing remotely close to the active proficiency that would be needed to translate into the language, but at least that would be a way to substantially (get rid of blatantly "fake" native speakers) but not excessively (keep The Misha and José) narrow down the list.
Collapse


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

People should not be able to claim they are native speakers without verification. (Staff: Link)






Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

Buy now! »
Anycount & Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000

Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.

More info »