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Pronunciation of Latin
Thread poster: Arcoiris
Hermenigilda (X)
Hermenigilda (X)
Latin to English
+ ...
National pronounciations not extinct Sep 20, 2005

You can still hear both strong vernacular accents within one "pronounciation" (for example English RP in the Italian-ecclesiastical pronounciation - try the Brompton Oratory) and different national pronounciations: in Poland "ts" is used for those c's which the Italians pronounce "ch", the g's are hard, and so on. German and Austrian pronounciation seems to be similar to Polish, but with very noticeable "umlauted" pronounciation of oe and so on.

 
Spring City (X)
Spring City (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
A slight correct re: gn Aug 7, 2007

In the Classical pronunciation this should be pronounced as ngn: agnus dei...angnus dei. Th should be pronounced as in "at home" (without glottal stops!!).

Actually there are 3 pronunciations or have been in England:

1) traditional English Latin, also known as Westminster Latin. Latin gradually came to be pronounced like English, so: vivat rex would be pronounced vYvat.. pater would be pronounced pAYter etc, as if they were English words, and this pronunciation was actu
... See more
In the Classical pronunciation this should be pronounced as ngn: agnus dei...angnus dei. Th should be pronounced as in "at home" (without glottal stops!!).

Actually there are 3 pronunciations or have been in England:

1) traditional English Latin, also known as Westminster Latin. Latin gradually came to be pronounced like English, so: vivat rex would be pronounced vYvat.. pater would be pronounced pAYter etc, as if they were English words, and this pronunciation was actually used as the official language in England until 1733, when English became the official language. The ablatives were strange: if gloria was an ablative, as the "a" was a long vowel, and a long English a is pronounced like "ay", gloria would be pronounced glori-ay in this Westminster Latin. Naturally people on the continent couldn't understand it, and as people researched Classical Latin pronunciation in the 19th century it was phased out... apart from Westminster school, which still uses it in some of its religious services. There is a book "Singing in Latin" which explains more. Some classical music in English Latin should be pronounced the Westminster way. There is an aria by I forget whom "in exitu Israel" where the music rises to a crescendo on the i of exitu... the composer was expecting the pronunciation: in excite-you Israel. I think Westminster Latin is largely seen as a nonsense today, but survives in legal Latin terms.

2) Classical pronunciation. I learned this, but my Latin teacher who was Italian, didn't like the v-as-w pronunciation, so we pronounced "servi" with a v. And we pronounced agnus as agnus instead of as I outlined above. But otherwise everything was Classically correct, eg Kikero for Cicero.

3) Ecclesiastical Latin. Well this is only ecclesiastical Latin in the RC church. The ecclesiastical Latin used by the Church of England in the 17th and 18th centuries was Westminster Latin. Just as English people started to pronounce Latin as if it were English, Italians began to pronounce Latin as if it were Italian, and so Ecclesiastical Latin is the national variant of Latin in Italy just as Westminster Latin was in England... apart from the fact that the pronunciation of Italian is naturally closer and that the use of this variant of Latin has not died out.

Take your pick, really!
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Alison Sabedoria (X)
Alison Sabedoria (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
French to English
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Different pronunciations depending on where and when... Jan 21, 2010

This interesting discussion has prompted me to dust off a book I've not looked at for a while.

In my previous incarnation as an early music singer, I needed to use at least 4 or 5 different pronuciations, reconstructed as far as possible for different countries and periods. These days I'd be hard pushed to do any but 12th century German (for Hildegard of Bingen) and 13th century French.

To anyone who wants help tip-toeing through this minefield, I can recommend:
... See more
This interesting discussion has prompted me to dust off a book I've not looked at for a while.

In my previous incarnation as an early music singer, I needed to use at least 4 or 5 different pronuciations, reconstructed as far as possible for different countries and periods. These days I'd be hard pushed to do any but 12th century German (for Hildegard of Bingen) and 13th century French.

To anyone who wants help tip-toeing through this minefield, I can recommend:
Singing in Latin by Harold Copeman (ISBN 0 9515798 0 0) published by the author in 1990, preface by Andrew Parrott. It has a good introductory section on phonetics, then looks at evidence for different pronunciations, and proposes practical solutions.

My daughter was taught the "academic" style and it really grated on my ears as I'd been raised on the "Italian/ecclesiastical".


[Edited at 2010-01-21 18:26 GMT]
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Mats Wiman
Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 18:13
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
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In memoriam
I agree with Churchill Jan 22, 2010

Jack Doughty wrote:
He deplored the fact that Julius Caesar's famous words "Veni, vidi, vici" (in his schooldays pronounced "Vehni, Veedee, Vichi") had been changed to "wainy, weedy, weekie".
(Tried to find his exact words on the Web, but without success).


In Sweden in the fifties we were taught: "Vehni, veedee, veeki" and the speaker was
Ceezar (just like in contemporary English) although my teacher also gave us the option of
"Kaizar".

Mats


 
Cantor
Cantor
United States
Local time: 10:13
G in Scandinavian Latin Pronunciation Jun 7, 2013

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone out there knows the proper pronunciation of the G in Scandinavian Latin pronunciation. I have heard both the soft (Italian) and hard (German) versions in recordings and the Latin pronunciation table I found on Wikipedia didn't really tell me what I wanted to know.

For example, the word, "octingenti":
Is the G pronounced like a J as in the English word "Gentleman" or hard as in the word "aGainst"?

Best,
-Dave


 
Mats Wiman
Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 18:13
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam
G like in 'aGainst' Jun 9, 2013

Being slightly out of touch with contemprary Scandianavian pronunciation (:-)) of 'G', I'd still venture to suggest the hard G, based mainly on contemporary Swedish, where e.g. 'stringent' is pronounced [strinGent] and not [strindjent].

Mats
Traductor


 
Mark Benson (X)
Mark Benson (X)  Identity Verified

English to Swedish
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Before consonant, hard vowel or soft vowel in classical, medieval or new Latin? Jun 9, 2013

Cantor wrote:

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone out there knows the proper pronunciation of the G in Scandinavian Latin pronunciation. I have heard both the soft (Italian) and hard (German) versions in recordings and the Latin pronunciation table I found on Wikipedia didn't really tell me what I wanted to know.

For example, the word, "octingenti":
Is the G pronounced like a J as in the English word "Gentleman" or hard as in the word "aGainst"?

Best,
-Dave


I took Latin at Stockholm University (as well as in high school). I was very interested in pronunciation.

As of Medieval Latin the "soft" pronunciation applies, before that it's hard, just as is the case with c. Obviously not before other consonants or hard vowels. For new Latin our present way of pronouncing letters applies. For g it's [j], same as the first sound in "young" (if followed by a soft vowel).

So to answer your question, only in the reading of a classical text should it be hard. Neither should it be soft in new Latin. Again, we're talking about g + soft vowel. When followed by consonant or hard vowel it's invariably hard.

And not least, the pronunciation depends on whether the speaker is at all capable of these pronunciations, because otherwise it's the standard Swedish [j] and not the Italian version many Swedes might find awkward. It's not a big deal, you won't be sent to a speech trainer. What matters, and has mattered for the past 100 - 150 years of Latin in Sweden, is the forms and all the rest of the intellectual challenges Latin should imply.

Conclusion:

When reading classical Latin it's always hard.
When reading medieval Latin it's soft before soft vowels, otherwise hard.
When reading new Latin it's the same as in Swedish, thus [j] before soft vowels and otherwise hard.
It actually doesn't matter and you're allowed to pronounce freely (but not when it interferes with scansion).

[Edited at 2013-06-09 02:38 GMT]


 
Cantor
Cantor
United States
Local time: 10:13
Thanks for the help! Jun 10, 2013

Thank you both, Mats and Mark!

I'm actually working on a solo from the Canticum Calamitatis Maritimae by Jaakko MÄNTYJÄRVI. It states in the performance notes that the Latin should be pronounced according to modern Scandinavian practices. My part is the reading of the Nuntii Latini broadcast of the Estonia ferry travesty in the 90s. Here is the text:

Plus octingenti homines vit
... See more
Thank you both, Mats and Mark!

I'm actually working on a solo from the Canticum Calamitatis Maritimae by Jaakko MÄNTYJÄRVI. It states in the performance notes that the Latin should be pronounced according to modern Scandinavian practices. My part is the reading of the Nuntii Latini broadcast of the Estonia ferry travesty in the 90s. Here is the text:

Plus octingenti homines vitam amiserunt
calamitate navali in Mari Baltico septentrionali facta.
Navis traiectoria nomine Estonia,
cum Tallinno Stockholmiam vesus navigaret,
saeva tempestate orta eversa et submersa est.
In navi circiter mille vectores erant.
Calamitate Estoniae nongenti decem homines perierunt,
centum undequadraginta sunt servati

In particular, the words "octingenti" and "nongenti". I had originally thought they would be more like the j than the g, but I will revise based on your input.

Thanks again!
Best,
-Dave

[Edited at 2013-06-10 22:16 GMT]
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Mark Benson (X)
Mark Benson (X)  Identity Verified

English to Swedish
+ ...
No... Your intuition was right. Jun 11, 2013

Cantor wrote:

Thank you both, Mats and Mark!

I'm actually working on a solo from the Canticum Calamitatis Maritimae by Jaakko MÄNTYJÄRVI. It states in the performance notes that the Latin should be pronounced according to modern Scandinavian practices. My part is the reading of the Nuntii Latini broadcast of the Estonia ferry travesty in the 90s. Here is the text:

Plus octingenti homines vitam amiserunt
calamitate navali in Mari Baltico septentrionali facta.
Navis traiectoria nomine Estonia,
cum Tallinno Stockholmiam vesus navigaret,
saeva tempestate orta eversa et submersa est.
In navi circiter mille vectores erant.
Calamitate Estoniae nongenti decem homines perierunt,
centum undequadraginta sunt servati

In particular, the words "octingenti" and "nongenti". I had originally thought they would be more like the j than the g, but I will revise based on your input.

Thanks again!
Best,
-Dave

[Edited at 2013-06-10 22:16 GMT]


It is [j] actually, as in the consonant sound in "you".

If g doesn't precede a soft vowel, it's hard [g], the consonant sound in "go".

Just like c is [s] or [k].

According to modern Scandinavian practices, there should be no [dʒ] or [tʃ] (for g and c). The equivalents are [j] and [s]. That's the g and c in "ge" and "gi", and "ce" and "ci". In all other cases the pronunciation is hard, [g] and [k].

If that's not what you hear when listening to a recording, the pronunciation on that recording is incorrect.

Hope that helps...


 
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Pronunciation of Latin






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