| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | "you have an accent" Thread poster: Matthew Trulandzev
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Michele Fauble 
United States
Local time: 23:29
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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| North Germanic | Oct 15, 2012 |
Bin Tiede wrote: What I find interesting is the differences on a national scale. The majority of northern Europeans speak English intelligibly, whether they have a Dutch, German, Swedish... accent. People in North and Central Europe speak west Germanic languages.
Swedish, along with Danish and Norwegian, is a North Germanic language.
| | | | | I personally doubt it Ty -- these might be just some isolated theories | Oct 15, 2012 |
It has not been scientifically proven. I am also speaking form my own, or my family's, experience. My mother's first language was German, and mostly German was spoken all around at the time when she was born, but as I mentioned somewhere before, she stopped speaking it at the age of about five and had absolutely no intuitions about it, no special predispositions towards speaking that particular language. Even my German is much better than hers was, later on. So, I think it all depends.
| | | | clairetransl (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
French to English
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| Regional accents | Oct 15, 2012 |
Tom in London wrote: Steve Booth wrote:
.......... I once bumped into a bunch of school kids in Saudi Arabia who all spoke very good English but in a very strong and unmistakeable Liverpool accent (Scouse). Indeed - care is required when studying a foreign language abroad. Examples: 1. I used to have a German friend who had studied English in Birmingham, with the result that she had a very broad Birmingham accent. A Birmingham accent is fine, if you're a native of Birmingham; but **not if you're German**. 2. I used to have an English friend who had studied Italian in Rome, with the result that she had a very broad Rome accent. A Rome accent is fine, if you're a native of Rome; but **not if you're English**.
Why?
I really don't understand what's wrong with having picked up the accent of the place where you lived/studied. After all, EVERYONE has an accent, whether it's a London one, a Scouse one or a Brummie one. I don't see why foreign learners of English should be expected to speak the Queen's English when most native speakers don't. I don't get why you think it's odd that someone who studied in Rome should have a Rome accent. If anything, I think it shows that the person integrated well and had lots of local friends - surely a good thing, as long as it doesn't affect comprehension (and in most cases, it doesn't)
Maybe I'm odd, but I just don't get why having a Brummie or Rome accent is only fine if you were born there. I've moved around all my life and have had several different accents in my mother tongue and my two source languages. People sometimes comment, but wouldn't it be more strange if my accent had remained unchanged throughout my life, like an object in a museum? Accents reflect who we are and where we've spent our time. I really don't like the idea that some accents (South East England?) are fine for foreigners to have while others are ridiculous. Perhaps I'm being a bit oversensitive, but I really don't get your point.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
Hebrew to English
LilianBoland wrote:
I personally doubt it Ty -- these might be just some isolated theories
It has not been scientifically proven. I am also speaking form my own, or my family's, experience. My mother's first language was German, and mostly German was spoken all around at the time when she was born, but as I mentioned somewhere before, she stopped speaking it at the age of about five and had absolutely no intuitions about it, no special predispositions towards speaking that particular language. Even my German is much better than hers was, later on. So, I think it all depends.
Isolated theories? I think you need to read more widely. There's ample evidence to support it in a variety of studies. Took me five seconds to find it on Google. It's not obscure and it's not isolated.
But of course, I could always just inform the Applied Linguistics Journal and the Oxford University Press that they don't know what they're talking about and to defer to your expertise.
*Also note I was talking about the prosodic features of a language, you are talking about generic language acquisiton (all systems). Need to uncross those wires.
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Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:29
Dutch to English
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| I am sorry, but that is jumping to conlusions | Oct 16, 2012 |
The only thing that is known is that infants and foetuses are sensitive to their parents' speech patterns, that babbling facilitates development of facial and mouth muscles so the child can start speaking its language in a proper way. Intonation and a certain structure, different depending on the parents' language, would already be present in babbling of 6-month old (or thereabouts) babies.
This does not proove at all that a child, sa... See more The only thing that is known is that infants and foetuses are sensitive to their parents' speech patterns, that babbling facilitates development of facial and mouth muscles so the child can start speaking its language in a proper way. Intonation and a certain structure, different depending on the parents' language, would already be present in babbling of 6-month old (or thereabouts) babies.
This does not proove at all that a child, say born from a Chinese mother (so sensitive to Chinese), abandoned at birth and say, adopted by a German family would have problems acquiring German as its L1. Neither would it proove that the same child would express itself differently and with a Chinese accent in German, nor that it would have problems with grammar.
The same applies to second generation immigrants who speak 'foreign' at home. At least not all have accents or display differences.
Now to the accent thing again:
I don't think it is strange to acquire the accent of the place where you studied, but as a native speaker you assume directly that a person who speaks with a nice accent you cannot identify as 'foreign' per se must be at least a near native speaker (20 years in the language or something), which can indeed lead to embarrassing situations, as people have said here.
I have never had that problem personally, although Germans don't really do their best in trying to accomodate. They just talk, if you cannot understand what they're telling you, it's your problem.
Neither do the English I have met. Although that is maybe because they don't have any other option and their grasp of the concept 'foreign language' is generally pretty poor (without wanting to upset anyone here; I apologise if I have). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
Hebrew to English
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
This does not proove at all that a child, say born from a Chinese mother (so sensitive to Chinese), abandoned at birth and say, adopted by a German family would have problems acquiring German as its L1. Neither would it proove that the same child would express itself differently and with a Chinese accent in German, nor that it would have problems with grammar.
The research doesn't claim that. As I've tried explaining already. The research says that at birth the infant is predisposed to the prosodic features of the main language it heard in the womb (presumably that of its mother and those around her) and that it is a kick-start to its language acquisition. It doesn't claim that a child can't be "re-wired" to another language system if displaced. An infant at birth is still "malleable"....and it really doesn't address the acquisition of other language systems at all.
Neither do the English I have met. Although that is maybe because they don't have any other option and their grasp of the concept 'foreign language' is generally pretty poor (without wanting to upset anyone here; I apologise if I have).
Why would anyone be offended? I mean, it's only borderline racist, right? I've always found sweeping generalisations based on nationality rather flattering
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:29
Dutch to English
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Ty Kendall wrote:The research doesn't claim that. As I've tried explaining already. The research says that at birth the infant is predisposed to the prosodic features of the main language it heard in the womb (presumably that of its mother and those around her) and that it is a kick-start to its language acquisition. It doesn't claim that a child can't be "re-wired" to another language system if displaced. An infant at birth is still "malleable"....and it really doesn't address the acquisition of other language systems at all. ats
I know it doesn't claim that. I am that far.
Why was it used in an argument to do with 'development of L1' if it does not claim that?
Indeed, children are malleable.
Why would anyone be offended? I mean, it's only borderline racist, right? I've always found sweeping generalisations based on nationality rather flattering
I think the statistics should speak for themselves. I may have disadvantaged in-laws, for all I know.
Besides, I think I did say 'all the English I have met', which does cut out all those I have not met. Maybe I have just been plain unlucky. Who knows.
My husband still tells the story of his uncle who was looking for a washer in a Spanish hardware shop, close to Malaga, where he had his second home in the 80s. Acting as if he was washing himself in front of the shop assistant whereas he just wanted somethng against the tap leaking. Poor man.
My point being that none of the monolingual people I have ever met have tried to speak more clearly or more simply. Probably because they don't know what 'simply' or 'clearly' means, as they have never had that problem.
That's not racist, it's just a fact.
However, on the upside, it is much easier to learn a language if you are part of a society where there are no compromises. The Flemish steadily complain that 'no-one learns [their] langauge', yet they insist on speaking French or English when the chance presents itself...
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
Hebrew to English
I was responding to Liliana's claim that:
There is no scientific proof that a child starts developing his or her L1 in the womb.
...which is incorrect. It may only be a small start, but it's a start nonetheless with a rather not insignificant body of evidence to back it up.
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Tom in London wrote
And when I lose my temper (which in Italy is not difficult to do) my "convincing" pronunciation tends to slip!
True, true and true!
Ah ah ah Tom, you make me smile, thanks I needed it today.
| | | | | What about adopted children, Ty, or placed for adoption right after birth? | Oct 16, 2012 |
What about children whose mothers' L1 is one language, but they speak another language at a particular time in their lives when the child is about to be born; the fathers speak another language, and the grandparents yet another one. Which sounds do the children get used to in the womb? Esperanto?
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
French to English
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| What is "accent" | Oct 17, 2012 |
What we perceive as "accent" (and this concurs with some of what Ty was saying in an earlier post) is in principle a little more complex than just the broad concepts identified by the original poster. Quite subtle phonetic features such as, say, how voice onset time varies with vowel quality, or how the qualities of nearby vowels interact with one another (just to name a couple out of thousands of possible examples) are susceptible to systematic patterns that speakers can potentially pick up on.... See more What we perceive as "accent" (and this concurs with some of what Ty was saying in an earlier post) is in principle a little more complex than just the broad concepts identified by the original poster. Quite subtle phonetic features such as, say, how voice onset time varies with vowel quality, or how the qualities of nearby vowels interact with one another (just to name a couple out of thousands of possible examples) are susceptible to systematic patterns that speakers can potentially pick up on.
In informal treatments of pronunciation, we often think of "learning the pronunciation" of a language as crudely learning canonical examples of the different "sounds" of that language. But in reality, part of what makes up the "pronunciation" of a given language or dialect is how sounds react with one another. As a relatively crude example, it's the set of details such as the fact that in pronouncing the word "act", the [k] and [t] sounds are generally superimposed in the speech of a native English speaker, but generally have separate bursts in the speech of a native French speaker pronouncing "acte". Or, again relatively crudely, the fact that it is part of native English pronunciation to pronounce "press sheets" as "presh sheets", but it is not part of native French pronunciation to pronounce "passe chez (toi)" as "pach' chez (toi)". And in reality, thousands of such patterns at an even more minute level.
My take re the point about prosody priming in the womb (or indeed other claims about the baby being sensitivised/primed to phenomenon X in the womb): there are *some* studies positing *some* potential evidence for such phenomena. My principal question/proviso for demanding a particularly high standard of evidence would be one of what the actual quality of the available data would be like to the child, and whether it is comparable to the type of data that children are known to use in acquisition generally. For example, there are some studies suggesting that children specifically discard certain data from their mother during acquisition (needless to say, mothers don't like being told this, but luckily science usually works by objectively analysing the available evidence rather than conducting an opinion poll among doting mothers). So it would be interesting to explore why some phonetic features may be ignored from input provided by the mother, whilst others are so vital that a (filtered/poorly transmitted) version of them is taken into account within those first few months of development while the baby is still in the womb in abnormal listening conditions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Two more cases; Let's not have as much discussion about the racist part about it | Oct 17, 2012 |
I have to say that I have a little bit of experience about this subject not just because of meeting new people where I live and having that question asked so often by them, but also from different cases that I want to share with you all. The very first time my English teacher (in USA) listened to the way I read, she told me that I read English the way it is spoken in England. The other case that happened not too long ago, is that a mexican told me that I have an accent and asked me if I was from... See more I have to say that I have a little bit of experience about this subject not just because of meeting new people where I live and having that question asked so often by them, but also from different cases that I want to share with you all. The very first time my English teacher (in USA) listened to the way I read, she told me that I read English the way it is spoken in England. The other case that happened not too long ago, is that a mexican told me that I have an accent and asked me if I was from Spain. By the way I am Albanian.
Whether we use examples or details and strategies about this subject, its discussion is still as interesting, but I just hope that we don't get too deep into the racist part about it. It's the only part that would ruin all the fun. ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:29
Hebrew to English
| Adoption? Esperanto? What the.... | Oct 17, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
What about children whose mothers' L1 is one language, but they speak another language at a particular time in their lives when the child is about to be born; the fathers speak another language, and the grandparents yet another one. Which sounds do the children get used to in the womb? Esperanto?
Please see post:
http://www.proz.com/forum/pronunciation/235190-you_have_an_accent-page3.html#2034475
..which you have either ignored or don't understand.
Or better still, read the academic literature, some of which I posted for you.
The point is....that it isn't an easy thing to do to shift an accent, not when you consider that you have been primed for the prosodic features of your own language (and dialect) since before birth. Not to mention aspects of culture and identity (there are issues, even subconsciously, of not wanting to get rid of one's accent). And even if you do want to, it's not so clear cut.
[Edited at 2012-10-17 12:18 GMT]
| | | | | I am sorry, Ty, but I have over 300 of combined graduate and undergraduate credits in linguistics | Oct 17, 2012 |
and literature from various great places -- I don't think much more is needed. (sorry, I don't really have a smily in my editor to send you one). The fact that one famous institution makes such claims does not mean the theory is to be treated as the Linguistic Bible. I participated in various linguistic studies on language acquisition. Even the theories indicated by you are just some isolated theories. Is it even known how much the featus can hear? Do you believe that children born in Essex, le... See more and literature from various great places -- I don't think much more is needed. (sorry, I don't really have a smily in my editor to send you one). The fact that one famous institution makes such claims does not mean the theory is to be treated as the Linguistic Bible. I participated in various linguistic studies on language acquisition. Even the theories indicated by you are just some isolated theories. Is it even known how much the featus can hear? Do you believe that children born in Essex, let's say, will automatically speak with an Essex accent? This is totally bizarre. You might have misunderstood something, slightly. Even the theories to which you posted links are actually pointing out to something else than linguistic profiling of unborn children.
It was previously not even known whether the fetus could hear anything. Some research was done on rats and lambs in which the signal was artificially enhanced, and a it was established that the fetus could, most likely, receive some signals, however, there is no proof it has any influence on the language acquisition, but rather on bonding with their mothers. This might all just be a myth, as far as I am concerned. Some psychologists even claim that playing classical music and exposing the fetus to it might have a positive influence on the child's brain development. Other psychologists claim that this has absolutely no effect on anything.
http://io9.com/5755343/what-can-a-fetus-hear-in-the-womb
[Edited at 2012-10-17 11:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-10-17 12:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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If you learn a language after about the age of 11 you will have an accent. That's life.
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