| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: Do you think it is possible to be native speaker in two languages? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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| Linguistic divide | Jan 7, 2017 |
This question made me think of quite another matter though related. I lived in Belgium for 30 years within an international environment and some of my colleagues married foreigners and have children who switch effortlessly between different languages BUT at the same time Belgium has 3 official languages (Flemish, French and German) and the weight of this linguistic divide is such that I wonder how many Belgians speak fluently those 3 languages though I have a good number of Belgian friends who s... See more This question made me think of quite another matter though related. I lived in Belgium for 30 years within an international environment and some of my colleagues married foreigners and have children who switch effortlessly between different languages BUT at the same time Belgium has 3 official languages (Flemish, French and German) and the weight of this linguistic divide is such that I wonder how many Belgians speak fluently those 3 languages though I have a good number of Belgian friends who speak fluently many other languages… ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ok, let it be polyglots, not just translators | Jan 7, 2017 |
certainly not spies though. Most bilingual or multilingual people, speaking of some who acquired two or more language almost at the same time, have accent in all three, or at least two. I know someone born in the US, educated solely in the US, a bilingual person, who has quite a strong accent in English, non-local,(typical of her other main language) not that there is anything wrong with it, and also some distinctive accent, in the other language she speaks--a highly educated person, more than ... See more certainly not spies though. Most bilingual or multilingual people, speaking of some who acquired two or more language almost at the same time, have accent in all three, or at least two. I know someone born in the US, educated solely in the US, a bilingual person, who has quite a strong accent in English, non-local,(typical of her other main language) not that there is anything wrong with it, and also some distinctive accent, in the other language she speaks--a highly educated person, more than BA.
[Edited at 2017-01-07 15:36 GMT]
[Edited at 2017-01-07 15:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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and thank you for all your intelligent insights. This poll has triggered some very interesting sharing.
Let me just throw in one more thing: The emotional aspect.
Of course, the level of talent for languages is different from person to person and, as some of you mentioned, there are real 'geniuses' out there - in languages as well as in other fields.
However, I have noticed that if a person's heart is open due to 'a good feeling' towards the particular la... See more and thank you for all your intelligent insights. This poll has triggered some very interesting sharing.
Let me just throw in one more thing: The emotional aspect.
Of course, the level of talent for languages is different from person to person and, as some of you mentioned, there are real 'geniuses' out there - in languages as well as in other fields.
However, I have noticed that if a person's heart is open due to 'a good feeling' towards the particular language, somehow it is easier to assimilate this language, and even reproduce a more native-like accent. Whereas, if a person does not like a country/language, something in his/her mind is resisting to take in the language completely and they keep a stronger accent.
I have seen this as a language teacher, but also when I look back on my own youth, I can see that English musicians like The Beatles, Cliff Richard etc. affected me emotionally so much that I always scored top marks in English.  ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We would also hve to establish what we mean by "speak" | Jan 7, 2017 |
I, for one thing, can only speak about everything-- almost, everything I know about, in English. I think that may be true about many other multilingual people. I am not sure if I have ever met anyone who could write about highly specialized matters with the same ease in two or more languages. Speak to what extent? This may be the question.
[Edited at 2017-01-07 16:11 GMT]
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B D Finch 
France
Local time: 13:45
French to English
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| Yes, but it's rare | Jan 7, 2017 |
I do think it's possible and people have given many examples already in this discussion. However, there are many more people who over-estimate their linguistic ability in one or more language, imagining themselves to have native-level proficiency when they do not.
The experience lived by a bilingual or polyglot in each of their languages will be different and, therefore, reflect different linguistic communities in each one. The importance of linguistic communities and local accent ... See more I do think it's possible and people have given many examples already in this discussion. However, there are many more people who over-estimate their linguistic ability in one or more language, imagining themselves to have native-level proficiency when they do not.
The experience lived by a bilingual or polyglot in each of their languages will be different and, therefore, reflect different linguistic communities in each one. The importance of linguistic communities and local accent and dialect within each language does seem a bit neglected in this discussion.
I've lived outside England for 18 years of my life and this means that I must have missed some things, my ignorance of which, together with limited interest in pop music, might lead a CIA or MI6 torturer to believe I was a spy and not really English. I used to have a tendency to pick up accents and, returning to England aged 27 after nearly 8 years away, it took a while to regain an English accent. That seems to be very age-related and I don't think I have any French accent in English, though I certainly can't help speaking French with an English accent. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Accent is not all. | Jan 7, 2017 |
Many actors have a perfect local accent in many languages, and other people who have a very good sense of hearing and a talent to repeat things, even things in languages they don't speaak at all.
And I agree, language is for most part community-specific, or community marked--this may be why it is so hard to talk about some abstract "native language".
[Edited at 2017-01-07 16:31 GMT]
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 07:45
Russian to English
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| Oops! You just shot yourself in the foot, I am afraid. | Jan 7, 2017 |
Eduardo J Ramos wrote:
Plus, I'm a translator, for over 20 years.
You may simply be kidding yourself, I am sorry to say. The above sentence could not possibly come from a native speaker of English. It's not just about grammar. It's about a particular mindset that you are either born with, or you are not. There are a few exceptions, of course (and, for the record, no, I do not mean myself), but they only confirm the general rule.
A dominant language that is not your native - yes, that happens all the time. Two native languages? Well, I don't know...
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Interesting that the only person here claiming to be a native speaker of two languages has only a tenuous grasp of English tenses...
Not meant nastily at all. It just proves the point. Bilingual, maybe; binative, no.
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| Yes - supposing... | Jan 8, 2017 |
Supposing you live in a bilingual country in a bilingual city, and both languages are used equally. If "native" means the language in your environment, etc. then you are a native speaker in two languages.
That said, if this is about translation, which is a profession, then the question is whether you are a competent translator in your language pairs, rather than whether hypothetically you might have the potential to be a good translator because of extrapolations from statistics. I.e. the... See more Supposing you live in a bilingual country in a bilingual city, and both languages are used equally. If "native" means the language in your environment, etc. then you are a native speaker in two languages.
That said, if this is about translation, which is a profession, then the question is whether you are a competent translator in your language pairs, rather than whether hypothetically you might have the potential to be a good translator because of extrapolations from statistics. I.e. the question is sort of moot. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mario Freitas
Brazil
Local time: 08:45
Member (2014)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Possible, yes | Jan 8, 2017 |
I have no doubt it's possible, although it's pretty rare to maintain that status throughout one's life, since the person will usually chose ONE place to live and will thus keep practicing and updating ONE language only. But it is possible, and I have met people who can certainly be considered native in two languages.
I can also see from this and other discussions that the concept of "native" varies a lot. thinking about the real meaning of the word "native", the person can be born i... See more I have no doubt it's possible, although it's pretty rare to maintain that status throughout one's life, since the person will usually chose ONE place to live and will thus keep practicing and updating ONE language only. But it is possible, and I have met people who can certainly be considered native in two languages.
I can also see from this and other discussions that the concept of "native" varies a lot. thinking about the real meaning of the word "native", the person can be born in the USA, for example, live there for 15 years, hence being a native English speaker, then move to Russia and never come back to the USA. When this person is 50 years old, are they still a native English speaker? They'll surely speak Russian a lot better than English, but will never be a native Russian speaker.
[Edited at 2017-01-08 04:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Eduardo Ramos
Thailand
Local time: 18:45
Member (2015)
Portuguese to English
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| @ Chris S Interesting indeed... | Jan 8, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
Interesting that the only person here claiming to be a native speaker of two languages has only a tenuous grasp of English tenses...
Not meant nastily at all. It just proves the point. Bilingual, maybe; binative, no.
Well, as far as I know, this is supposed to be an informal and relaxed thread regarding a concept inherently defined by different people in different ways. And not a literary contest...
In any events, if you would like to discover more about my written [or spoken] English or Portuguese [when I have the time, and the patience, I'm a CI & SI interpreter's coach as well...] you're free to contact me and order a translation job, or a short story on any subject that may please your mind, or even a Skype call on technical, linguistic and cultural issues of translation or, simply, to improve your conversation skills.
I'm free from mid March on, and you can expect very special rates.
Because you made me smile...
Arrogance always does...
Post Scriptum - 'bi-native' NOT 'binative' [TN: this one was for free.]
| | | | Mario Freitas
Brazil
Local time: 08:45
Member (2014)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| @ Eduardo & Chris, | Jan 8, 2017 |
I'm sorry to mention this, Eduardo, but if you read any text in Portuguese written by a non-native, you'll be able to detect many things in the construction that clearly indicate the person is not a native. I don't consider myself a native English speaker, yet, in both texts you wrote below, there are several construction and word-choice issues that are clear evidences you are not a native English speaker. I mean, your English is excellent, and I see no mistakes there. But a native speaker would... See more I'm sorry to mention this, Eduardo, but if you read any text in Portuguese written by a non-native, you'll be able to detect many things in the construction that clearly indicate the person is not a native. I don't consider myself a native English speaker, yet, in both texts you wrote below, there are several construction and word-choice issues that are clear evidences you are not a native English speaker. I mean, your English is excellent, and I see no mistakes there. But a native speaker would be able to detect in two lines that you are not a native, although an excellent and fluent English speaker.
I used to consider myself native in English, until I saw the exact same thing happen the other way around. People from other countries stating they were native Portuguese speakers, but when I read two lines of their text in Portuguese, I could tell right away they were not native Portuguese speakers. But they cannot notice it. They believe their Portuguese is perfect because there are no mistakes in their texts. But there is also no euphony in the target language. You can easily tell the person thinks in one language and writes in another one, given their word choice and their construction in the second language.
So I stopped calling myself a native in English. Any native in English will read this very text and state in a minute: this person is not a native English speaker. Why? Only a native English speaker would be able to tell.
[Edited at 2017-01-08 16:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Eduardo Ramos
Thailand
Local time: 18:45
Member (2015)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| @ Mario ... with a genuine sorriso | Jan 8, 2017 |
Mario Freitas wrote:
there are several construction and word-choice issues that are clear evidences you are not a native English speaker.
So I stopped calling myself a native in English.
[Edited at 2017-01-08 16:15 GMT]
Mario, my dear colleague and 'ProZ-e-friend':
My post expressed my personal views about the old 'bi-native' question/dilemma...
And, what I said, was strictly based on ProZ very own definition/recognition of what 'native' is.
[Actually, to be honest, I even have a different perspective, and I mainly agree with you and others...]
Now [*read again what you wrote*], are you saying that I'm a liar or, even worst, a pretender?
That is quite offensive. And serious.
You do realize that, I reckon...
Do you really think I have the need to prove that I'm both an English and Portuguese native?
And to whom? [*sigh*]
Anyway, we all have our bad/jumpy days...
You're forgiven.
And forgotten...
[Com o melhor de mim, Mario, apenas te quero desejar um bom 2017 (aqui é 2560) e dizer que deves pensar melhor antes de emitir opinião sobre alguém que não conheces e baseado em algo de que não estás certo. Porque o que acabaste de ler agora, posso escrevê-lo de 200 maneiras diferentes em Português ou Inglês ou... ... ... ... Mas não é isso que importa. Alguma vez me ouviste comentar a tua forma de escrever...? Ou por em causa o teu Português ou Inglês? Não, é uma questão de respeito natural. Por isso, dá-te ao respeito para seres respeitado.
Abraço]
| | | | EvaVer (X)
Local time: 13:45
Czech to French
+ ...
| As to your discussion boys... | Jan 11, 2017 |
how many native speakers will get tenses wrong? One can see horrible things out there, and even in texts we translate - at least, that I translate. I am just translating a French text by a French native speaker and it's awful. So do we speak about a native speaker, or about an EDUCATED native speaker?
| | | | Mario Freitas
Brazil
Local time: 08:45
Member (2014)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
EvaVer wrote:
how many native speakers will get tenses wrong? One can see horrible things out there, and even in texts we translate - at least, that I translate. I am just translating a French text by a French native speaker and it's awful. So do we speak about a native speaker, or about an EDUCATED native speaker?
Let's forget the meaning of "native", and let anyone who is fluent and educated in a second language call themselves native. It's OK with me. In that case I'm a native English and Portuguese speaker. Thank you.
[Edited at 2017-01-11 18:41 GMT]
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