| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Off topic: Swearing Thread poster: Stéphanie Denton (X)
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 19:13
Chinese to English
| It's not about cool | Nov 22, 2011 |
I just want to take issue with the easy dismissal "people just swear because they think it's cool". I honestly don't think that's true of anyone over the age of 12. Me personally, I swear despite the fact that I know that in many circumstances it's definitely uncool, because I've fallen into bad habits.
Chinese swear words don't seem to be as offensive as English swearwords. To start with, Mandarin Chinese is quite a modern, synthetic language, so it just doesn't have a long history... See more I just want to take issue with the easy dismissal "people just swear because they think it's cool". I honestly don't think that's true of anyone over the age of 12. Me personally, I swear despite the fact that I know that in many circumstances it's definitely uncool, because I've fallen into bad habits.
Chinese swear words don't seem to be as offensive as English swearwords. To start with, Mandarin Chinese is quite a modern, synthetic language, so it just doesn't have a long history of vulgarity. A lot of people lapse into their local dialect when they want to swear properly here (I live in the south - perhaps there's better Mandarin swearing in the north, but I've heard not). Swearing can be inappropriate and silly here (I once had a taxi driver cram four "fuck your mother"s into a ten-word sentence, which did come across as just inarticulate); and certainly you avoid it in the office. But there's less of that "swearing is a sin" reaction that you get in English, the idea that allowing the word fuck to cross your lips at all is "bad". Here, it's just, you've said the wrong thing at the wrong time and place. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Comment to Sheila's posting | Nov 22, 2011 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
An old woman's reply
Oh! If you're old at 56, then I'm certainly old at 57... don't feel that way though. Sorry to all if my posting was misleading!
About swear words in another language: it's very difficult to evaluate their impact in another language... one tends to apply direct translation without a real feel for the cultural implications.
This is wildly off-topic but somehow related: I'm not offended by words, but I'm really shocked by spiteful comments about other people... this is something that still bothers me in everyday situations and also when social gatherings turn into occasions for dissecting other people's lives.
Do let us know how your presentation went Stéphanie.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Script writing | Nov 22, 2011 |
Say a writer is writing a movie script, and they have to build a character, the common Joe, who swears a lot. This is to make the character as real as possible, for this is who he is. Are they going to make the character speak more politely just in order not to offend someone watching it? Or should we be real and accept the fact this is how certain people talk?
| | | | Wendy Cummings
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:13
Spanish to English
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Having read this post with interest, I couldn't help but remark on the use of asterisks (as also commented by sblatlangtech).
Whilst I appreciate that, being an English-language post, writing swear words in full may alert the censors, nevertheless barely a single person in this post has written an English swear word without the use of an asterisk. As linguists and this being a linguistic discussion, and the title of the post being clear enough to warn people of the likely content, a... See more Having read this post with interest, I couldn't help but remark on the use of asterisks (as also commented by sblatlangtech).
Whilst I appreciate that, being an English-language post, writing swear words in full may alert the censors, nevertheless barely a single person in this post has written an English swear word without the use of an asterisk. As linguists and this being a linguistic discussion, and the title of the post being clear enough to warn people of the likely content, are we still unable to write "fuck" without.... shame? embarassment? offence?
Posters have however written out several foreign swear words in full.
I do not know the nationality of each poster, but if they are English native speakers does this imply that they are "less offended" by the foreign words? Perhaps they have not developed the same cultural sensitivities to foreign swear words as to English ones?
As for myself, I can categorically say the #1 recipient of my profanities remains my CAT tool.... ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Wendy Leech wrote:
Whilst I appreciate that, being an English-language post, writing swear words in full may alert the censors, nevertheless barely a single person in this post has written an English swear word without the use of an asterisk. As linguists and this being a linguistic discussion, and the title of the post being clear enough to warn people of the likely content, are we still unable to write "fuck" without.... shame? embarassment? offence?
Why would carefulness about not being banned or warned for ProZ rules be confused for shame, embarrassment and offence? We have seen warnings about this before, so it's only natural for people to avoid it.
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Dear Wendy,
The reason I used asterisks in my post was not out of "embarrassment" or "shame", but simply to avoid being censored. I wasn't sure whether Proz censors entries that contain "profanities" - many websites do.
Unembarrassed,
Jenny
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Embarassement etc | Nov 22, 2011 |
Yes, we had a professor aged 75 who once made us utter profanities out loud at class, since we needed to be completely O.K. with that as future linguists.
However, this house has different rules and I don't see a point in analyzing them as they are obviously there just to be followed.
| | | | Stéphanie Denton (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:13
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Wendy Leech wrote:
As for myself, I can categorically say the #1 recipient of my profanities remains my CAT tool....
Totally agree with you on that one, Trados brings out another side to me.
Just to let everyone know that my talk went very well, was a little surreal but your different opinions definitely helped and I can honestly say that swearing is as subjective as pretty much any other subject.
Thank you all for contributing, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts and had a good giggle at some of them. My turn to answer my own questions:
- Is swearing too commonplace?
I believe that it has become a part of everyday language, particularly in the UK. Films, comedians, etc. do not hold back anymore, thus almost "encouraging" it.
- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
At 24, I don't get offended by swearing unless it is directly aimed at me. I do get annoyed at some people's lack of vocabulary (i.e. saying fuck every two words, yet again, I get annoyed with people who say "like" and "you know" every two words...)
- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
I didn't realise how often I swore until I had my daughter and I had to start replacing every fuck with fudge and every shit with sugar. Notably, like other peopl, when something isn't working as it should, when I hurt myself (in which case I'm often swearing at myself, should I get offended ?), or when someone has annoyed me "Fudging idiot!", there isn't a day that goes by when a little fuge or some sugar slips into my vocabulary. However, I do not replace every other word with a swear word, and I absolutely hate the term cunt (cringing as I write that). I find it vulgar.
- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
Depends on the person. I don't personally find many offensive, particularly not bloody.
- How has swearing delevoped in your native tongue?
It is definitely more "accepted" than when I was little. I would have had my mouth rinsed out with washing up liquid (in fact, I did once, I was sick) if I had used a swear word about 15 years ago. However, that same person who put washing up liquid in my mouth and made me sick said shit the other day on the phone to me. She blamed it on her old age. I laughed.
- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
Sorry, I didn't make this entirely clear, by next generation, UI meant children born within the past couple of years. My daughter, Émilia, is 2 on New Yaer's Eve and despite the fact that I swear, I'd hate her to swear (yes, call me a hypocrite...), but I know that is in inevitable.
I do not believe that it is a punishable offence. However, I shall have a swear pot in the house. Not just for my daughter, but for my partner and I too. Might just make us rich!
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 13:13
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Not encouraging | Nov 22, 2011 |
Stéphanie Denton wrote:
- Is swearing too commonplace?
I believe that it has become a part of everyday language, particularly in the UK. Films, comedians, etc. do not hold back anymore, thus almost "encouraging" it.
They are not encouraging it, they are picturing reality.
There has been linguistic research on this, which confirmed the number of vulgar words, compounds, phrases etc has significantly increased in public use, in the past 50 years, and especially last 20 years. It took into account all levels of language use.
[Edited at 2011-11-22 11:19 GMT]
| | | | | The F-Word Style Guide | Nov 22, 2011 |
Right here.
| | | | | Just remembered this... | Nov 22, 2011 |
When I was at school in Belgium (many years ago...yes, I am definitely old!), I had a wonderful English teacher (Ms. Michiels) who, one day, dedicated two hours of her English class to foul language. Her idea was that, foul language being unavoidable, you'd better know what you were getting into in order to avoid "faux pas" that were absolutely unrepairable.
After all, when learning a language, foul language and humour are some of the most difficult aspects to acquire and estimating... See more When I was at school in Belgium (many years ago...yes, I am definitely old!), I had a wonderful English teacher (Ms. Michiels) who, one day, dedicated two hours of her English class to foul language. Her idea was that, foul language being unavoidable, you'd better know what you were getting into in order to avoid "faux pas" that were absolutely unrepairable.
After all, when learning a language, foul language and humour are some of the most difficult aspects to acquire and estimating the "force" of such words in a language that initially is definitely not yours, is extremely difficult, if not impossible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 13:13
English
+ ...
| Hey Stéphanie | Nov 22, 2011 |
Stéphanie Denton wrote: I didn't realise how often I swore until I had my daughter and I had to start replacing every fuck with fudge and every shit with sugar. Notably, like other peopl, when something isn't working as it should, when I hurt myself (in which case I'm often swearing at myself, should I get offended ?), or when someone has annoyed me "Fudging idiot!", there isn't a day that goes by when a little fuge or some sugar slips into my vocabulary.
When I had my daughter I didn't use any replacement words. I just refrained from using any such words... until she started school and began using those words herself.
[Edited at 2011-11-22 18:32 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-22 18:33 GMT]
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 12:13
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Part of an all-round education | Nov 22, 2011 |
Suzan Hamer wrote:
When I had my daughter I didn't use any replacement words. I just refrained from using any such words... until she started school and began using those words herself. Then I figured it was OK for me to say them in front of her too.
It's not appropriate for very young children, but there comes a time when a child SHOULD know such words. They exist, they could be aimed at your child, and he or she should be armed with some idea of what they mean and how to respond.
I normally teach adults, in business English. They really don't need to know an awful lot of swear words as they will mostly be in rather formal situations (and they already have a couple of choice internationally-known words). But I once taught a French adolescent who was going to school in America. With his parents' permission, I actually concentrated on swear words, slang, derogatory remarks, etc. It seemed to me that the playground was where he was going to be most out of his depth, and he confirmed this on his return. Unfortunately, he soon forgot most of his English skills - but he can still swear like a bilingual fish-wife!
Sheila
| | | | | Shifts with the generations | Nov 23, 2011 |
I do object to real swearing, but distinguish it from the need to let out some expletive on the spot when --- well, when you can't help it!
I'm 61, and don't swear much myself. When I do, I tend to say b***y h*ll and sound feeble. 
When thinking in Danish, I use a so-called ladies' oath about the plague, which is considered quite mild these days, or revert to English.
As a young child I was isola... See more I do object to real swearing, but distinguish it from the need to let out some expletive on the spot when --- well, when you can't help it!
I'm 61, and don't swear much myself. When I do, I tend to say b***y h*ll and sound feeble.
When thinking in Danish, I use a so-called ladies' oath about the plague, which is considered quite mild these days, or revert to English.
As a young child I was isolated from swearing, and my father's one expletive, OH BOTHER! had to serve all purposes. Which it did - the inflection and tone of voice indicated whether he had just dropped the soap in the bath, was faintly annoyed, or working up to the next expletive: I WON'T HAVE IT!! (Which meant we children were in serious trouble....)
My mother knew a few ancient Icelandic-sounding expletives, but rarely used them. Oh, dear! and JUST STOP IT! NOW! were all she needed when we were listening, and again, the tone said it all. The phonemes barely mattered. She did occasionally work herself up to BLAST IT! when we were older.
Many juicy expressions were probably used in the part of Bombay/Mumbai where we lived, but we did not learn the local languages - small children were not allowed out alone. A colourful troop of actors who specialised in Shakespeare taught me some new words, but I never understood any of them as swearing...
Back in the UK and at school, we did hear more of real life, but we not have TV for years, and the wickedest language we ever heard was Kenneth Williams on the radio... although we were encouraged to read almost anything in print.
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In Denmark swearing apparently shifts with the generations.
I read once that many of the oldest expressions were associated with disease and the plague or the devil. Then came appeals to the Almighty, which were very wicked some hundred years ago, at least in west Jutland, where my mother-in-law grew up.
My husband's generation went over to lavatory expressions. I remember teaching our son to use a rather childish expression for doggy mess on the street, while muck on the farm was muck, because his grandmother would not like the equivalent of sh*t coming from a child!
I still hate those lavatory expressions, but then came the fashion for swearing in English, which 'did not count as real swearing' in some people's eyes.
I banned it in my house with reasonable success - my son's friends took the hint when I told them intelligent young men like them needed a wider and more imaginative vocabulary!
The young people of today use a language that sounds really horrible to many of us - in English and Danish, but when they swear, many use the English four-letter-words they have learnt on TV. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | swearing in German just sounds less educated | Nov 23, 2011 |
I have lived in America and England for quite a bit and I don't find the English swearing that offensive. Especially not when it comes from an American. THey use swearing words every other sentence. I once saw an american movie dubbed in German. I found it tasteless and not funny at all since they also included all the swear words. A few weeks later I saw the same movie in English and realized that in English those words are just not as disturbing as they are in German. If a German used that man... See more I have lived in America and England for quite a bit and I don't find the English swearing that offensive. Especially not when it comes from an American. THey use swearing words every other sentence. I once saw an american movie dubbed in German. I found it tasteless and not funny at all since they also included all the swear words. A few weeks later I saw the same movie in English and realized that in English those words are just not as disturbing as they are in German. If a German used that many swear words he/she would sound less sophisticated and people would start avoiding that person.
I get the impression that- at least in American English- it is just what you do... ▲ Collapse
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