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Suzan Hamer 
Netherlands
Local time: 21:12
English
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| I must admit I was surprised | Nov 21, 2011 |
when I heard my daughter's Dutch oma (grandmother), a Christian/religious/church-going woman in her 80's, say sh*t quite often and easily, and this was over 20 years ago, in a small rural village.
And I've heard people use variants of the f-word quite a bit lately on Dutch TV, on family entertainment-type talent shows, so programs shown before what in the UK you call the watershed, I believe.
So there must be some cultural differences. I have the feeling that people he... See more when I heard my daughter's Dutch oma (grandmother), a Christian/religious/church-going woman in her 80's, say sh*t quite often and easily, and this was over 20 years ago, in a small rural village.
And I've heard people use variants of the f-word quite a bit lately on Dutch TV, on family entertainment-type talent shows, so programs shown before what in the UK you call the watershed, I believe.
So there must be some cultural differences. I have the feeling that people here (of all ages) just don't give much of a sh*t about using certain words.
(By the way, I've used the asterisk because others have; are we not able to use these words here as they are commonly spoken and spelled?)
[Edited at 2011-11-21 17:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 21:12
Italian to English
In memoriam | The grammar of swearing | Nov 21, 2011 |
aceavila - Noni wrote:
Editing to add a self-quote from a previous forum, on the grammar of swearing...
"F*ckity (with an e) is a multi-function word, somewhat akin to f*cking (with a u) - although f*cking (with an e) does exist, and can be an adjective ("one of those feckity 70s picture windows" - clearly an opinion adjective, hence its position at the head of the adjectives), a noun ("does anyone know what the f*ckity has happened here?") and, most commonly, an adverb, as in "f*ckity f*ck", in which case it is an intensifier."
When I was at school in the 1960s, I used to work for the local authority during the holidays, often in the new computer department, which was part of the borough treasury. The council's machine had roughly the power of a modern pocket calculator and was very temperamental, despite having its own climate-controlled room, so the computer technician was a regular visitor to the office. On one occasion, he emerged from the bowels of the machine after a particularly extended bout of tinkering to find the anxious deputy borough treasurer waiting for him. "Well, is it serious?" asked the elderly official. The reply he received was "The f***ing f****r's f***ing f***ed".
[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:29 GMT]
| | | | Russell Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Italian to English
| | God's name vs "dirty" words | Nov 21, 2011 |
As a Christian, I am very bothered by the casual use of God's name (including Jehovah, Christ, Jesus Christ, Oh my God, OMG, etc.). It is offensive to my ears, as I believe it is to God's, though I am well aware that most of the people using such expressions "don't mean it that way," which leads me to wonder: If they don't believe in/care about God, why bother to use his name? Why not swear by what is sacred to them?
I just had a fit of giggles imagining some of my acquaintances goi... See more As a Christian, I am very bothered by the casual use of God's name (including Jehovah, Christ, Jesus Christ, Oh my God, OMG, etc.). It is offensive to my ears, as I believe it is to God's, though I am well aware that most of the people using such expressions "don't mean it that way," which leads me to wonder: If they don't believe in/care about God, why bother to use his name? Why not swear by what is sacred to them?
I just had a fit of giggles imagining some of my acquaintances going around saying things like, "Oh, my beautiful face!" "Oh, money, I forgot my cell phone!" "Oh, my social status, no!"
On the other hand, the so-called "dirty words" don't bother me nearly as much. In general, I find them silly and unimaginative. I much prefer my husband's "¡Ay, carambinas, carambolas, Illinois México United States!" (I'm from Illinois in the US, he's from Mexico.)
Myself, I don't swear at all (I'm 62). I never heard swearing, profanity, obscene language--whatever you want to call it--in English when I was growing up, and my early Spanish learning was mostly in church. I didn't learn Spanish swear words until my oldest son started school and came home with unfamiliar words. ("Ummm--don't say that again until your Dad gets home and we can ask him about it.")
I'm not seriously offended by swearing in movies, as long as it's not ridiculously overdone. For some reason that I am unable to analyze clearly, I am more offended when I hear it in broadcast TV. In novels, I mostly overlook it, though sometimes excessive profanity has been the breaking point in deciding to quit reading and discard a book, if I'm on the fence about whether it's worth reading or not.
To Kirsten Bodart re: "bloody"
I'm not British, so probably shouldn't be commenting on a British issue. However, here goes: It's my understanding that "bloody" derives from "God's blood," one of the most holy things that early English Christian monarchs knew of to swear by. Hence the offensiveness of "bloody" in current English. How many people who use the word (or object to it) are aware of its origin is another issue entirely.
Very interesting topic. I must add that in the classroom, when discussing the translation of profanity, I have no problem whatsoever with saying words that I never use in conversation. There is no "power" or offensiveness inherent in combinations of phonemes. However, I am careful to use any version of God's name, or that of a deity from a religion other than my own, with respect.
Jane ▲ Collapse
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jacana54 (X)
Uruguay
English to Spanish
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Hi,
This is a middle-aged, middle-class opinion from the Southern Cone.
- Is swearing too commonplace?
It certainly is very very common among young people, to the point where I sometimes wonder if really lovely young girls realize that they sound like truck drivers, and other times I fear that the language has been reduced to half a dozen adjectives.
It's much less common in office settings, social gatherings of girls my age or who went to the ... See more Hi,
This is a middle-aged, middle-class opinion from the Southern Cone.
- Is swearing too commonplace?
It certainly is very very common among young people, to the point where I sometimes wonder if really lovely young girls realize that they sound like truck drivers, and other times I fear that the language has been reduced to half a dozen adjectives.
It's much less common in office settings, social gatherings of girls my age or who went to the same school as I did, and older people.
- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
No, not offended. Sometimes it gets a bit boring... do they really have nothing better to say?
For instance, I'm thinking of a show on one of the US-based TV channels, in which the characters (in their twenties) used the f- word several times in each sentence. That isn't offensive, that's lack of imagination, limited vocabulary, or a poor attempt at being funny or cool.
- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
I never swear "at" people, never say "you so-and-so", but I sometimes do use swear words when objects are mean to me, as a quick way of letting off steam (you can ask one of my CAT tools!). The words I use aren't as "bad" as the ones the next generation uses.
- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
Oh, there is great variety, but I think lots of swear words have lost their offensive potential (through frequent use).
Another example: many people will go to football matches and shout "awful" things at the players, the referee... and back at the office on Monday they will explain with a straight face that this is simply their form of therapy. So the offensive intent of those words, while it existed at the time, was also a bit of a joke.
- How has swearing developed in your native tongue?
I'm afraid we've picked up many Argentine expressions ... national purity is lost by too much TV!!!
- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
Yes, but if they all do it, I'm not worried.
Finally, I started to read your posting because of comments in the press about problems between football players (in England). I don't know the details of the case, much less what they said to each other. But that made me think that what might be offensive in one country or culture, might not be offensive in another country. And, as Steve mentioned, the same applies for different social circles.
Good luck with your talk!
[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:17 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 22:12
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| So common nobody minds anymore | Nov 21, 2011 |
In Finnish you have the choice between one expression for the vagina, one for the penis, one for the devil, another for hell, and the word for faeces. The word for the vagina is so commonly used nowadays that it sounds strange when someone is able to speak two sentences without it.
Of course one can combine these expressions freely. Real swearing is an art and requires a broad vocabulary.
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
To JaneTranslates:
The online etymology dictionary says about this word:
"O.E. blodig, adj. from blod (see blood). It has been a British intens. swear word since at least 1676. Weekley relates it to the purely intensive use of the cognate Du. bloed, Ger. blut. But perhaps it ultimately is connected with bloods in the slang sense of "rowdy young aristocrats" (see blood) via expressions such as bloody drunk "as drunk as a blood." Partridge reports that it was "respectable... See more To JaneTranslates:
The online etymology dictionary says about this word:
"O.E. blodig, adj. from blod (see blood). It has been a British intens. swear word since at least 1676. Weekley relates it to the purely intensive use of the cognate Du. bloed, Ger. blut. But perhaps it ultimately is connected with bloods in the slang sense of "rowdy young aristocrats" (see blood) via expressions such as bloody drunk "as drunk as a blood." Partridge reports that it was "respectable" before c.1750, and it was used by Fielding and Swift, but heavily tabooed c.1750-c.1920, perhaps from imagined association with menstruation; Johnson calls it "very vulgar," and OED first edition writes of it, "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."
The onset of the taboo against bloody coincides with the increase in linguistic prudery that presaged the Victorian Era but it is hard to say what the precise cause was in the case of this specific word. Attempts have been made to explain the term’s extraordinary shock power by invoking etymology. Theories that derive it from such oaths as “By our Lady” or “God’s blood” seem farfetched, however. More likely, the taboo stemmed from the fear that many people have of blood and, in the minds of some, from an association with menstrual bleeding. Whatever, the term was debarred from polite society during the whole of the nineteenth century. [Rawson]
Shaw shocked theatergoers when he put it in the mouth of Eliza Doolittle in "Pygmalion" (1914), and for a time the word was known euphemistically as "the Shavian adjective." It was avoided in print as late as 1936. Bloody Sunday, Jan. 30, 1972, when 13 civilians were killed by British troops at protest in Londonderry, Northern Ireland."
Athough the origin is hazy, it is a fact that it was a respectable word, already in use from 1676. And boom, someone's misperception bombards it to be slightly offensive, falsely originating at with something like real blood, then it becomes horrid and after that it is not even printed anymore until 1936! No wonder that old man found me offensive, because 'it was no word for a lady.'
Meanings as 'God's blood' have been made because people find these words offensive and try to find a reason rather than because that's where they came from.
My point is that most 'offensive' words are products of over-zealous prudish minds which have done a lot for the art of swearing, but have only succeeded in moving the boundaries... Which was not their aim in the first place.
By the way, I write in asterisks because I am used to it (if I swear) on another forum. As I do not really know the forum rules perfectly, I rather don't take any chances... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Hebrew to English
| The limits of Profanity | Nov 21, 2011 |
On bloody
This is considered quite tame nowadays, given the imaginative stream of profanity that flows from most people's mouths. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I heard this (in public or anywhere else).
On limits
Profanity, like humour doesn't really have limits, the more people try to restrict and define what is acceptable, the more people flout these imposed restrictions.
I find that the only profanity that is real... See more On bloody
This is considered quite tame nowadays, given the imaginative stream of profanity that flows from most people's mouths. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I heard this (in public or anywhere else).
On limits
Profanity, like humour doesn't really have limits, the more people try to restrict and define what is acceptable, the more people flout these imposed restrictions.
I find that the only profanity that is really still taboo (in the UK) is racist profanity. (And even this occurs behind closed doors if we're honest).
-Ricky Gervaise's use of "Mong" erupted into ridiculous condemnations recently, so profanity related to LDs are borderline I'd say. I tend to use them (in English & Hebrew) but I'd probably avoid on rare occasions, depending on the crowd.
Blasphemy can be found everywhere, but it is somewhat meaningless in that the U.K really isn't religious at all (various polls show around 10% church attendance - and from day-to-day experience I'd say that's inflated).
I think there's a strong correlation between profanity and driving (especially for men).
See you next Tuesday!
The "C" word (c**t / C U Next Tuesday!) was always considered one of the worst swear words in English, but this is becoming more common, although it might even make me blush if uttered in public.
The F word
It's hard to argue against such a versatile word, migrating into almost every word class (noun, verb, adjective...). I think moderate use is alright, there's nothing offensive about littering your speech with it, however you run the risk of sounding uneducated as listeners will assume your vocabulary doesn't expand far beyond expletives. ▲ Collapse
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Russell Jones
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Italian to English
| ProZ.com guidelines | Nov 21, 2011 |
There is no doubt a difference between swearing in spoken and written language, which I don't have time to delve into at the moment but the site does have a policy on the issue: http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/4#4
A couple of years ago, there was discussion among Moderators about how to interpret the rule and it was settled that the terms mentioned in the Wikipedia page on pro... See more There is no doubt a difference between swearing in spoken and written language, which I don't have time to delve into at the moment but the site does have a policy on the issue: http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/4#4
A couple of years ago, there was discussion among Moderators about how to interpret the rule and it was settled that the terms mentioned in the Wikipedia page on profanities should be used as a guideline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Profanity ▲ Collapse
| | | | | As a matter of interest | Nov 21, 2011 |
Warning: I've used *** aplemty but this post nonetheless contains quite a lot of strong language, which some might find offensive, because even the *** don't really hide the words. Please do skip it if the rudest of rude words upset you, because I'm not trying to upset people, just making a point.
Ty Kendall wrote:
I find that the only profanity that is really still taboo (in the UK) is racist profanity. (And even this occurs behind closed doors if we're honest).
(...)
The "C" word (c**t / C U Next Tuesday!) was always considered one of the worst swear words in English, but this is becoming more common, although it might even make me blush if uttered in public.
It was interesting that on Fry's Planet Word, all those involved made a special point of not saying a certain word directly, referring to it exclusively as the n-word, whereas c**t was bandied around quite merrily by all concerned. Whereas in the 70s, say, racial epithets, as it were, were heard on telly all the time (e.g. Love Thy Neighbour) whereas even Play For Today couldn't have people saying c**t.
There will, I guess, always be a sliding scale of offensiveness, and words will move up and down it. There used to be a Gropec**t Lane in London once upon a time (and possibly elsewhere), back in the days when streets were named after what went on there. Agatha Christie wrote a book called "Ten Little N*****s". In contrast, now you can have a film on general release called Meet The Fockers", and French Connection can freely use the FCUK logo, both of which are surely only a thin veneer....? Motorhead were advised, in 1975, against calling themselves Bastard (now viewed so mild I see no need to *** it if Radio 4 can broadcast it in the middle of the afternoon) whereas now we have bands called Anal C**t and The F***ing Champs, inter alia.
[Edited at 2011-11-21 21:19 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 20:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| An old woman's reply | Nov 21, 2011 |
- Is swearing too commonplace?
No more, no less so than at any time in the past.
- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
Very rarely if it's used in "context", in fact I don't generally go in for "offended", but I do raise an eyebrow when it seems wildly inappropriate. I'm 56, by the way. One thing that makes my eyebrows rise is the way the French use the F word - they seem to think it's just the sam... See more - Is swearing too commonplace?
No more, no less so than at any time in the past.
- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
Very rarely if it's used in "context", in fact I don't generally go in for "offended", but I do raise an eyebrow when it seems wildly inappropriate. I'm 56, by the way. One thing that makes my eyebrows rise is the way the French use the F word - they seem to think it's just the same as "merde" and use it any/everywhere. It's downright embarassing sometimes! (Not offensive, though).
- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
Of course I swear if something goes very wrong. In that way it's very "active"! But I hope I don't use swear words as common adjectives. There is always a better alternative to "bloody" etc if you aren't furious.
- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
It clearly varies over time. I remember when I couldn't possibly use some words that now seem less horrific. An example would be the W word when addressing a man, or the C word for a woman. They aren't words I use even nowadays, but they don't have the same shock value they did when I was younger.
- How has swearing delevoped in your native tongue?
Ah, now it's questions like that that make me realise I need to go back to the UK more often. I don't really know how things have progressed/degenerated since I left 20 years ago.
- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
In pretty much the same way as the previous generation did, I expect, but I'm sure they won't use the same words.
I'm a business English teacher and when something goes wrong in a lesson I sometimes say "merde" under my breath - I live in France, after all. My students think that's very funny (no doubt because of the accent) and say "No, you must say "sheet"!" Then we all fall about laughing!
I realise some people get hung up on blaspheming etc. but I have bad eyesight and started wearing glasses at a very young age. My parents sent me to school armed with the saying that all native English speakers know: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Trite it may be, but it's true. F.U.C.K. is just four letters of the alphabet - what harm can they do?
Of course, as a translator, register is all-important and I've yet to come across a text requiring the use of the F word (or any of the others I've mentioned, for that matter).
Sheila ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Stupid remark, but... | Nov 21, 2011 |
could you please define "swearing"?
There are plenty of words that are considered to be foul language and that - when you really look at them without prejudice - are just words, nothing more...
If swearing is being used as a form of "stop words", and appears at least twice in every sentence, then it bothers me, not because it would be foul language, but because the person who is speaking (or writing, for that matter) is clearly linguistically not very imaginative.
... See more could you please define "swearing"?
There are plenty of words that are considered to be foul language and that - when you really look at them without prejudice - are just words, nothing more...
If swearing is being used as a form of "stop words", and appears at least twice in every sentence, then it bothers me, not because it would be foul language, but because the person who is speaking (or writing, for that matter) is clearly linguistically not very imaginative.
Words, nothing more than words....Leads me to think that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so must be swearing....And while we are at it; someone who wants to be offended (it is after all a cosy situation, the role of the offended one), WILL be offended, no matter what one writes or says. A lot of the stuff I read every day, by the way, written by people who are supposed to be educated, makes me cringe and I am offended by it, simply because I cannot imagine that people with the slightest bit of education can write such stupidities (am primarily talking about prejudices and beliefs, rather than reasoned statements). Can I now also ask them to also start using asterisks when they write?
As to the use of these *s; that is completely ridiculous. We use an asterisk in order not to write the word but we do it in such a way that the word remains clearly recognisable and understandable from what remains...Nobody in his or her right mind will write ****, instead of f*ck....the fun would be entirely gone, wouldn't it?.....Well, in my vocabulary that is called being a hypocrit....If you want to say something, say it and don't hide...No use trying to be holier than the pope (or am I swearing now?)
Stephanie, good luck with the talk! Interesting! ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 21:12
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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Neil Coffey wrote: You might be interested to look at talks by Stephen Pinker who talks about (and I believe has researched) the way in which swear words might be 'emotionally special' words http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BcdY_wSklo The key point, which could feed into the legal arguments around swearing, is that there's a theory that on some level speakers "cannot help" but to process swearwords-- and evoke associated negative connotations-- when they see/hear them. [Edited at 2011-11-21 17:15 GMT]
Yes, that's true. Also, you can't translate vulgarism with a euphemism, which I saw people trying to do. Especially young translators.
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
French to English
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| Yes, I do find it offensive | Nov 22, 2011 |
... and I'm not that old - well, 50, which doesn't seem old to me, but probably does to some translators on this site! I have two sons of 19 and 22 and am aware this seems to have become the language of the playground, but my boys and their friends know very well that I won't have swearing in the house and generally abide by the rules. I just don't think it's necessary or remotely acceptable - most of the time it's done for effect and if that offends someone else, I don't think that's very nice.... See more ... and I'm not that old - well, 50, which doesn't seem old to me, but probably does to some translators on this site! I have two sons of 19 and 22 and am aware this seems to have become the language of the playground, but my boys and their friends know very well that I won't have swearing in the house and generally abide by the rules. I just don't think it's necessary or remotely acceptable - most of the time it's done for effect and if that offends someone else, I don't think that's very nice. Television programmes where the F word is commonplace are tiresome too - I just don't see the point, so I steer clear.
I have had occasion to be offended when someone on Kudoz (you know who you are!) swore in writing when responding to a comment I'd made after posting a question and then subsequently adding more context information which I hadn't initially thought was necessary, but which he obviously did. He withdrew his answer, adding a comment with the swear word, not realising that the asker sees the comment. He did apologise when I reacted, but I still feel it was entirely gratuitous. It made me feel awful - and if that makes me old-fashioned, then so be it..... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
French to English
+ ...
| Religiously swearing | Nov 22, 2011 |
JaneTranslates wrote:
which leads me to wonder: If they don't believe in/care about God, why bother to use his name? Why not swear by what is sacred to them?
Possibly a way to see this is that as a swearword, people aren't actually "using God's name": they're using what is now an arbitrary lexeme that historically derived from God's name, a religious invocation etc, but has now lost that connotation.
Swearwords aren't unique in potentially going through this process. When a Spanish speaker says "Ojalá", they're probably not actually invoking Allah. And when somebody says "bless his little cotton socks", they're probably not actually invoking any person, deity or entity to actually bless the socks in question. Do you or God then also get offended by this, I wonder?
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