| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Off topic: What would you do now if Proz.com had not existed. Thread poster: Williamson
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Elías Sauza 
Mexico
Local time: 01:31
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
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I don't know. I just know that it exists and I'm very grateful. That is what matters to me. I had been a translator before I knew about proz.com, but it definitely helped me achieve all I wished as a translator.
[Edited at 2009-08-17 03:15 GMT]
| | | | | I'd be a translator for end customers | Aug 17, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
...What would you have done if this site (and others like this site) had not existed or if you had not stumbled upon it/your attention had not been drawn to it. I would probably still be translating and looking for direct clients in a good old fashioned way. And you?
If this site hadn't existed, I would have polished off my marketing strategy in order to go get end customers. But Proz.com has been giving me enough contacts with agencies to work full time. And working-with-agencies-only is not in my list of regrets.
I came to translation out of necessity, not boredom or opportunism. A few friends and successfully established (proz-unaware) colleagues with translating/interpreting qualifications helped in this decision 10 years ago.
Besides, I was already far from the "turf" I had planned. Even running a small hotel crossed my mind (thank god we didn't try that).
When I was younger I wanted to be a paleontologist or an archaelogist.
Life is unpredictable.
Philippe
Edit: Actually I wasn't aware of proz.com when I established and and starting working full-time. But it allows me to expand visibility, therefore to be more picky, with the only goal of continuously improving my agency customer base (with payment terms, rates, behaviour, mutual trust, overall subjective feeling, etc.). If/when I am done with agencies and/or I feel I no longer earn enough, I will prospect end customers the good old fashioned way.
[Edited at 2009-08-17 09:59 GMT]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 09:31
German to English
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| What would you do now if Proz.com had not existed. | Aug 17, 2009 |
Let's find out.
The implication of the original post seems to be that without this site, lateral entrants to the profession would have been unable to market themselves as translators. Given the notoriously poor business skills of many colleagues with a more traditional background, I find that a little ironic.
But whatever. I've been intending for some time to close my user account here, so why not take th... See more Let's find out.
The implication of the original post seems to be that without this site, lateral entrants to the profession would have been unable to market themselves as translators. Given the notoriously poor business skills of many colleagues with a more traditional background, I find that a little ironic.
But whatever. I've been intending for some time to close my user account here, so why not take the question at face value and kill two birds with one stone.
As far as work goes, I've never received any via the site, nor have I ever expected to find any in my market segment through this or any other public online "marketplace". Professional translation doesn't lend itself to eBayization (and that, incidentally, is far less a criticism of the site than of some people's expectations of it).
The site does offer scope for forging business contacts through networking, but I personally find other venues more attractive for this purpose, and in any case I have far too little time to take advantage of all the other networking opportunities, virtual and face-to-face, that are available to me (and, for the most part, also to lateral entrants to the profession).
I do use the site as a source of information on industry trends, but only as one of many such sources. Formal user status does not give me access to significantly more information than that available to unregistered users.
So on balance, I'm not expecting closing my user account to result in any major changes. But we'll see.
Marc P
P.S. to site staff: Two articles written by me are in the Article Knowledgebase. I will be unable to update these articles after closing my user account. If you are interested in publishing updated versions, please contact me privately. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Lend itself to what??! | Aug 17, 2009 |
Qué?
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| The war is over | Aug 17, 2009 |
I cannot help it, but with regards to various topics, be it "native translators", "lateral entrant translators", "TAUS", some seem to think there is a need to defend something or to fight for something:
Williamson wrote:
why don't the above-mentioned professionals (except for translators-interpreters) stick to their turf (medicine, law, architecture , psychology, engineering or whatever)/would the above-mentioned professionals have stuck to their turf if there were no sites like Proz.com and others?
What is the problem, do we (MDs. lawyers, etc.) take your jobs?
If this is the case, you should ask yourself why a customer decides to give a job to one of the "domain specialists" and not to you? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you are not considered specialized enough for these jobs.
In my opinion the war is over, you either do your job well enough to satisfy the needs of your customers or you don't.
I see no reason why I should defend my personal decision to work as a fulltime freelancer. I expect that every other person on this website respects the decisions that sometimes life takes for us. I find the expression "stick to their turf" extremly elitist and disciminatory.
So again, what is your problem with "domain specialists"?
Siegfried
| | | | | what would I do? | Aug 17, 2009 |
Nothing, I would carry on doing what I did before Proz or even the Internet...
Proz is a great site for networking but it has, in my opion, "cheapened" our profession or, maybe I should say, the image of our profession. The published rates here are often well below what a professional translator would or should charge and, on a long run, this leads to the false perception that those are the standard rates. And I believe that Proz is partially at fault for permitting - even if... See more Nothing, I would carry on doing what I did before Proz or even the Internet...
Proz is a great site for networking but it has, in my opion, "cheapened" our profession or, maybe I should say, the image of our profession. The published rates here are often well below what a professional translator would or should charge and, on a long run, this leads to the false perception that those are the standard rates. And I believe that Proz is partially at fault for permitting - even if as just a neutral platform - the spreading of this misleading information... not a lot we can do about this, but I do miss a bit the competition-free times of my beginnings... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Very hypothetical questions | Aug 17, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
consisted of 2 parts with one implicit question : why don't the above-mentioned professionals (except for translators-interpreters) stick to their turf (medicine, law, architecture , psychology, engineering or whatever)/would the above-mentioned professionals have stuck to their turf if there were no sites like Proz.com and others?
AND what would you do if sites like these and others which according to rulez, I am not allowed to mentioned by name, did not exist?[Edited at 2009-08-16 18:44 GMT]
Hello Williamson,
Valid questions, though highly hypothetical, in my opinion.
In my case, being both a language and technology-oriented person, I became a fan of the Internet and of various translation-related websites since their beginnings, because of the immense resources the Internet made easily available in both the language/translation and technology areas.
In fact, I signed up in Proz.com, along with other translation-related websites, almost since they were created, but I have only recently (less than 3 years) become a more active participant in Proz.com. I just don't have the time to participate actively in each and every translation-related website in the Internet, so so far I still prefer to stick to Proz.com.
Of all the existing translation-related websites, I still find Proz.com the most interesting and useful one for me in particular, probably because of my personal background and personal affinity, which includes college studies in the USA.
But I am sure that if Proz.com did not offer me all the information and resources it offers, I may have become more interested in any other similar websites, simply because what interests me the most is what I can learn and obtain from such websites, and that includes not only language and translation resources, but also "meeting", if only virtually in most cases, colleagues from all over the world.
About your question regarding how Proz.com and other similar websites may have facilitated certain trends in the translation profession, I think that if, anything, you should "blame" the Internet, not necessarily Proz.com or similar websites in particular. Whether it had been Proz.com or XXX, as some people already commented, a similar website would have been created by whoever had the technological and business talent required to open such a website.
Obviously the Internet opened a whole wide new world of possibilities in all professions, which explains that, for example, all kinds of professional specialists were made more visible in order for them to be able to compete more easily against the traditional "translation-only" professionals and, as already commented, fill the gap of the more specialized translations.
In this respect, I honestly think this also shows that the translation profession was not as "organized" as we thought, something that Proz.com and other similar websites exposed quite clearly, probably because this profession has never been regulated by the kind of "exclusive-member-only-club" compliances/laws required in other professions such as Medicine or Law.
So I think that, because of the Internet, we are living in an age of inter-mingling of many professions, in a more globalized market, so we may find some translators also offering DTP or sound-recording services, etc., because technology and the Internet have made it easier to learn about all these jobs, just like other non-translation-only professionals are now able to offer translation services.
Again, if anything, "blame" the Internet, which has also caused major revolutionary changes in areas such as the way we have access to music and to all kinds of multimedia resources, to spoken communication in general (like Skype), etc. etc.
Best regards,
Ivette
[Edited at 2009-08-18 12:41 GMT]
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Blaming and whining: Your interpretation. | Aug 17, 2009 |
I don't "blame" anybody for anything and I don't whine.
I was just wondering if all the lateral entrants would have become a translator if it had not been for the internet and sites like these (P.com, A, TC, et.al). The answer, I expected from the laterals is that the still would practise the profession they were trained for ?
"Do you think they ought to "stick to their turf"? If you do think this, can you explain further?
No, but I find it odd that a person has ... See more I don't "blame" anybody for anything and I don't whine.
I was just wondering if all the lateral entrants would have become a translator if it had not been for the internet and sites like these (P.com, A, TC, et.al). The answer, I expected from the laterals is that the still would practise the profession they were trained for ?
"Do you think they ought to "stick to their turf"? If you do think this, can you explain further?
No, but I find it odd that a person has studied medecine, chemistry, architecture et.al. to become a translator.
What would happen if vice-versa were true: Suppose there is a website (bidding system included) for lawyers. I decided to give legal council overnight. I register and may be called a "professional". It would not take long or I would get the police at my door. I gave the example lawyer, but could give the example "doctor".
That's like a real (not wannabe) pilot, who goes through flight training to become a translator.
Law and some other fields are related to translation: yes, you have a profession like lawyer-linguist, working at the European Court in Luxembourg. The qualification you need to participate in the competion for lawyer-linguist is a law degree of one of the 27 Member States, not a translator's degree. There are synergies between translation and IT (localisation).
No, it is not always clear cut, but some backgrounds (example: also a teacher of physical eduction), you wonder why this person became a translator? Opportunism?
Anyway, the market is as it is. It is a monopolistic competition (easy come, easy go) that can be approached from many directions. Everyone has to make the best of his/her approach.
[Edited at 2009-08-17 15:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:31
French to English
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Williamson wrote:
consisted of 2 parts with one implicit question : why don't the above-mentioned professionals (except for translators-interpreters) stick to their turf (medicine, law, architecture , psychology, engineering or whatever)
I can't answer this, but can speculate: perhaps they find they are talented at translation within their specialist area and find they can make a good living at it while working from home; perhaps some will find their linguistic skills aren't good enough and will have to go back to their previous profession; perhaps they have been asked to translate something, found they liked the task and were good enough, and generated repeat business that way and are now pursuing the profession full-time; and any number of other vague hand-waving suggestions.
What's your own view on the matter?
/would the above-mentioned professionals have stuck to their turf if there were no sites like Proz.com and others?
No idea. I'd venture to suggest that plenty of them find work without the help of ProZ, just like a great many translators who are not also professionals in other areas.
Do you think they ought to "stick to their turf"? If you do think this, can you explain further?
AND what would you do if sites like these and others which according to rulez, I am not allowed to mentioned by name, did not exist?
I'm sure if such things didn't exist we'd invent them. As others have said, this really isn't the best place to find work but it does have other advantages. Each aspect of what Proz does is also done (better, in many cases) by other organisations/sites, but this is one of the largest such venues.
Speaking personally, if there were no ProZ I don't think my workload would be affected, though for visibility purposes it is helpful to have a profile on such a high-traffic site.
[Edited at 2009-08-17 15:30 GMT]
| | | | | Law degree not a pre-requisite | Aug 17, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
No, but I find it odd that a person has studied medecine, chemistry, architecture et.al. to become a translator.
What would happen if vice-versa were true: Suppose there is a website (bidding system included) for lawyers. I decided to give legal council overnight. I register and may be called a "professional". It would not take long or I would get the police at my door. I gave the example lawyer, but could give the example "doctor".
A bit hypothetical as those professions require a professional qualification in most, if not all, countries of the world (and rightly so). We might consider that translation and interpretation should also require this kind of qualification, if so we are free to lobby, politically or otherwise, for such a change.
Law and some other fields are related to translation: yes, you have a profession like lawyer-linguist, working at the European Court in Luxembourg. The qualification you need to participate in the competion for lawyer-linguist is a law degree of one of the 27 Member States, not a translator's degree.
This might be true for in-house positions, I have no idea, but a law degree is not required in order to tender for translation work with the European Court of Justice. I have studied both law, but not to anywhere near degree level, and linguistics, and based on the documentation I supplied, I was invited to tender for freelance translation work. As my work conditions changed at the time, I choose not to tender so I can only guess at how the process would have continued. But at no time during my application was the fact that I do not hold a law degree considered.
| | | | | I find your concept Williamson, very strange | Aug 17, 2009 |
Your idea that it is wrong for people to study one thing and do another.
How long have there been degree courses in translation? And how good are they?
Honestly I think most older translators must have studied something else, other than translation, because if there were degree courses in translation, they were not available everywhere.
I personally think that there is a lot to be said for being an expert in another field in areas like translation, journalism and ... See more Your idea that it is wrong for people to study one thing and do another.
How long have there been degree courses in translation? And how good are they?
Honestly I think most older translators must have studied something else, other than translation, because if there were degree courses in translation, they were not available everywhere.
I personally think that there is a lot to be said for being an expert in another field in areas like translation, journalism and business. For example one México's top journalists is a trained lawyer and gives wonderful insight into rulings of the Supreme Court or new laws that no-one else can do. Likewise translation, which is a very abstract concept, obviously benefits from people who are well versed in their respective subjects.
And Proz benefits from their input. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Neutral attitude | Aug 18, 2009 |
Degree courses: in Europe: Since the end of the Second World War. (ETI-Geneva was the first). The others date back from the 60-ies. In the Anglo-Saxon world they came into being in the 80-ies. In the US?? I did not say it is "wrong". I said that I find it odd to specialize in a particular field to end up translating. Studying to become an OBYGYN for example to end up as a translator? Why can't they practice their love for women? w... See more Degree courses: in Europe: Since the end of the Second World War. (ETI-Geneva was the first). The others date back from the 60-ies. In the Anglo-Saxon world they came into being in the 80-ies. In the US?? I did not say it is "wrong". I said that I find it odd to specialize in a particular field to end up translating. Studying to become an OBYGYN for example to end up as a translator? Why can't they practice their love for women? which is the purpose of their studies in the first place.
Most would not have thought of translation, if it weren't for translation portals.
Hence the second part of the question: What would you have done, if there had not been such portals? I wonder what the public must think of those lateral entrants? Will they ask themselves the same question as me?
It is not specialist against linguist, but both working together.
The specialist as a supplier of terminology, the linguist as a "language transposer" and finally both to have a final review of the text.
As I said: It is a monopolistic market: "Easy come, easy go." For some it is only a stopover, for others an extra to their pension or to their salary as specialist, professor or whatever.
[Edited at 2009-08-18 06:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| ECJ (off-topic) | Aug 18, 2009 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
I have studied both law, but not to anywhere near degree level, and linguistics, and based on the documentation I supplied, I was invited to tender for freelance translation work. As my work conditions changed at the time, I choose not to tender so I can only guess at how the process would have continued. But at no time during my application was the fact that I do not hold a law degree considered.
It is true for some language pairs. I was invited fot PL/RO>IT, and I do not have a degree in law. For the most common pairs you do need a degree in law.
I imagine it'd be quite impossible to find a law graduate who knows Polish and is a professional translator.
Paola
| | | | | Wandering the pastures green and brown | Aug 18, 2009 |
Williamson wrote: I said that I find it odd to specialize in a particular field to end up translating. Studying to become an OBYGYN for example to end up as a translator? Why can't they practice their love for women ? which is the purpose of their studies in the first place. Most would not have thought of translation, if it weren't for translation portals. The specialist as a supplier of terminology, the linguist as a "language transposer" and finally both to have a final review of the text.
Well, Williamson, it's been clear to me for quite a while that you vastly overrate the usefulness of formal translation education and qualifications among other things. The specialist is more than a "supplier of terminology" - s/he is the one who really understands the concepts, which a generalist translator like you will often fail to do without long exposure in a specific environment. They are simply better educated in the subject matter. In the "old days" when most translation was local and in-house, staff translators had more opportunity to develop deep expertise in some areas. Even then, the few examples I've seen were not impressive despite the impressive skills of the linguists. When I first came to Germany and worked as a systems consultant and developer with a software company, the company had a super translator heading the group with that responsibility, a German man whose skill with creative expression and grammar in English is probably better than my own. He had been around for years. He did wonderful marketing translations. But the really technical stuff? Forget it. I started translating IT and chemistry material because even the "good" translators screwed up so often or one would have to waste so much time explaining background information to them that it simply isn't worth the bother. By the time I could help you understand some of the texts I do so that you as the degreed translator could handle it properly I could translate it myself three times.
I think that may be how a lot of people from other fields get into translation. The realize from their own experience and the experience of frustrated colleagues that the guy or gal with the translation degree and the dictionary mentality is a waste of time. Of course, most bilinguals in any field will make crappy translators, just as many of those with formal education in translation make crappy translators. "Trägt er auch 'nen goldenen Ring, der Affe bleibt ein häßlich Ding" - if you don't have a thorough command of both languages and good ability as a writer with an appropriate style for the chosen text types, the results will likely not be pretty. And of course that's just a start.
I was translating off and on for about 24 years for myself, coworkers, professors and others, because the "pros" simply weren't a useful part of the picture or the cost wasn't justified. If I give you a stack of research articles in one of your working languages and ask for a summary of the key points in each relevant to my research, can you do it? You might think so, but without the background in the field you'll probably miss a lot more than the specialist. Little things like variations in chemical names that feel like a punch in the eye to me might be invisible to you.
Translation portals only came into the picture after an interpreter for police that I knew asked me if I was familiar with ProZ. She knew that I freelanced doing IT translation because companies found it nearly impossible to find translators with translation degrees who were worth bothering with.
I spent some time 28 years ago at the Dolmetscherinstitut in Saarbrücken dabbling in a bit of Russian to German translation to accompany the Sumerian to German fun with the archaeologists and all the lovely practical linguistics that the curiously talented Max Mangold offered back then. I didn't bother with the EnglishGerman stuff (after all I was a chemistry student on a long holiday), mostly because the attitudes toward my native language and its variants were simply too funny. I find these attitudes today in the German translators trained to think that they know my native language better than I do because they have a degree related to it. Some of them are quite good in English, as I am good in German. But we all have limits. Limits of language skill (very individual) and of subject knowledge (more relevant to this thread). You will simply not be able to educate past these subject limits in a useful way with those studying translation in their youth.
Perhaps that's why translators of any kind seem to hit their stride around age 40 (if you're 35 and feel you've done so, accept a virtual pat on the back at this point). Those with translation degrees need 20 years to get a clue and work usefully in a specialty and those coming from other careers need 20 years or so to burn out on the daily grind in the office or lab, or they begin to encounter the ubiquitous age discrimination and decide to take a hike and pay their bills without supervisors and coworkers.
Whatever the reasons, Williamson, I really wouldn't worry about it. Your past posts have made it clear that you feel trapped as a translator and want out but find that age and perhaps talent are working against you. Perhaps it's puzzling why people from other, greener pastures would want to invade yours and nibble the dry stalks of weeds there. (This sounds like a conversation I've had often with my partner lately, a talented translator who has planned to do something else for over 20 years.) But life's too short for me to waste on such things. If some young upstart wants to step in and grab most of my business by writing better sounding, more accurate translations delivered early every time, I wish s/he would hurry up and do so - I need more time with my novels and my dogs.
| | | | | back to the real question.. | Aug 18, 2009 |
Ignoring the usual clash of personalities and general self-aggrandization, the original question surely targeted the difference, if any, that sites such as this have made to translators' lives. Perhaps I may add my three cents....
To me the ONLY interest of a site such as this was that it provided a forum for exchange. It offered the possibility to make contact with people I would never otherwise have encountered in any way. Of course, the contacts are usually virtual and I would ne... See more Ignoring the usual clash of personalities and general self-aggrandization, the original question surely targeted the difference, if any, that sites such as this have made to translators' lives. Perhaps I may add my three cents....
To me the ONLY interest of a site such as this was that it provided a forum for exchange. It offered the possibility to make contact with people I would never otherwise have encountered in any way. Of course, the contacts are usually virtual and I would never claim that I came to the site to make friends and influence people.
If this and other sites had not existed, then doubtless - nature detesting a vacuum and the graveyards being full of people who thought they were indispensable - someone else would have invented them. But, assuming that had not happened, then I would say that the real disadvantage would have been the lack of opportunity to pick other people's brains.
It is nice to have a common store of vocabulary - easier than producing one's own all by oneself and a great short cut for the (intellectually) lazy. Perhaps a little more self-discipline would have been the order of the day. Indeed many people who drifted aimlessly into translation might well have kept their distance to the greater benefit of the profession.
That would have been the downside. The upside would have been that the general dumbing down of the profession and the bottom-feeding so prevalent today would have taken longer to occur. Have no illusions: those who want the cheap and cheerful would have found their salvation even without this site. The only problem is that it is arguably true that the site's existence and the possibilities it offers for people to establish contacts irrespective of where they are in the world have vastly accelerated the process.
Personally I am not concerned that lawyers, doctors, scientists, etc. join the ranks of the translation profession, provided they are literate and respect certain basic conditions of reliability, efficiency, intellectual discipline and price. My personal reservations are much more directed at those who undercut their more qualified colleagues to win a contract and then proceed to pick those colleagues' brains in order to be able to deliver a result. We all have to begin somewhere but there are clearly some people who do not have the talent or skill to succeed and sites like this tend to allow them to live in a fool's paradise, getting away with murder and damaging the image of the profession as they go.
Throughout my long career I managed without sites like this and I think I'm a better translator for having learned the hard way (and, yes, I do have official paper qualifications in translation and interpreting plus a hell of lot of experience in the field!) ▲ Collapse
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