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Proofreading Rates
Thread poster: Mark Harris
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:01
Serbian to English
+ ...
Really??? Jul 25, 2019

jyuan_us wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:
a academic proofreading agency who proofread academic work for foreign students.
Mark


I cannot believe such an agency even exists

Back to topic, this job can be done by a mono-lingual English speaker

[Edited at 2019-07-24 18:01 GMT]

[Edited at 2019-07-24 22:25 GMT]


You are really suggesting that you could do ANY kind of work on a translation without having the first clue about what is in the Source Text???

I certainly beg to differ ... Even if it's really proofreading, not editing passing off as "proofreading"!


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:01
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
There is no such a thing as source text in this kind of work Jul 25, 2019

Daryo wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:
a academic proofreading agency who proofread academic work for foreign students.
Mark


I cannot believe such an agency even exists

Back to topic, this job can be done by a mono-lingual English speaker

[Edited at 2019-07-24 18:01 GMT]

[Edited at 2019-07-24 22:25 GMT]


You are really suggesting that you could do ANY kind of work on a translation without having the first clue about what is in the Source Text???

I certainly beg to differ ... Even if it's really proofreading, not editing passing off as "proofreading"!


The foreign students write their papers in English if they are studying in a UK university.

[Edited at 2019-07-25 05:26 GMT]


 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 03:01
Dutch to English
+ ...
Per hour vs per word Jul 25, 2019

First of all you need to clarify with the agency whether they want only 'pure' proofreading or editing as well. It is often suggested to charge approximately 1/3 of your translation rate for 'pure' proofreading and 2/3 for editing. Even though the sample text was not representative of the work you may be getting, see how this would work out and how it compares with the suggested rate.

There is some doubt in my mind whether this job ethical. If it was me, I would try to find out what
... See more
First of all you need to clarify with the agency whether they want only 'pure' proofreading or editing as well. It is often suggested to charge approximately 1/3 of your translation rate for 'pure' proofreading and 2/3 for editing. Even though the sample text was not representative of the work you may be getting, see how this would work out and how it compares with the suggested rate.

There is some doubt in my mind whether this job ethical. If it was me, I would try to find out what these papers are going to be used for. If they are going to be submitted as course work for marking, I would not want to be part of it.
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Daryo
 
Barbara Carrara
Barbara Carrara  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 10:01
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
To further prove my earlier point... Jul 26, 2019

Hello again, Mark

Sorry to barge in again, but I'd like to further emphasize the fact that a 'language professional' should make sure they know their onions before they engage in tasks that may turn out to be detrimental to their professionalism.

Mark Harris wrote:
While I don't have any specific training in proofreading per say, I do now have a couple of years' experience translating and proofreading documents that have been translated into English, so I feel fairly confident doing this type of work.


The glaring mistake in the above snippet should not have made it to your proofed post.
Just saying (I'm giving you a clue here).


Josephine Cassar
P.L.F. Persio
Yvonne Gallagher
Michele Fauble
Daryo
Andy Watkinson
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:01
Serbian to English
+ ...
Then it's even worst, in fact Jul 26, 2019

jyuan_us wrote:

Daryo wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:
a academic proofreading agency who proofread academic work for foreign students.
Mark


I cannot believe such an agency even exists

Back to topic, this job can be done by a mono-lingual English speaker

[Edited at 2019-07-24 18:01 GMT]

[Edited at 2019-07-24 22:25 GMT]


You are really suggesting that you could do ANY kind of work on a translation without having the first clue about what is in the Source Text???

I certainly beg to differ ... Even if it's really proofreading, not editing passing off as "proofreading"!


The foreign students write their papers in English if they are studying in a UK university.

[Edited at 2019-07-25 05:26 GMT]



Well, these foreign students, English not being their first language, will in fact first think of what they want to say in their own language, "translate it" into their version of English before writing it down. So this "proposed work" in fact amounts to checking a translation without having a clue about the original text!

I've seen this kind of "original English texts" few times - if you know that language you have decent chances of seeing through what is in fact a weird sounding almost word for word "translation" from the writer's mother tongue.

A monolingual English speaker often wouldn't stand a chance of making any sense of it.

Another trap: when confronted with a not too badly written but very ambiguous sentence about a subject matter you know nothing about, as you have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's mind, you could easily change the sentence to make it perfectly grammatically correct, very nice sounding and "flowing" - and also utter technical nonsense.

Another element, more than "a small detail":

to be accepted in a UK University, you must show a sufficient command of academic English by passing the IELTS test (https://www.ielts.org/) - having your academic writing "proofread" (if not in actual fact rewritten to make it palatable) by someone else could easily be seen as academic cheating, maybe not on the same level as paying someone to simply write the whole paper, but a form of cheating nonetheless.


[Edited at 2019-07-26 13:10 GMT]


Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:01
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Maybe the job isn't exactly how you see it Jul 26, 2019

Daryo wrote:
I've seen this kind of "original English texts" few times

A monolingual English speaker often wouldn't stand a chance of making any sense of it.

A. Translators aren't monolingual English speakers, by definition;
B. All of us who provide this type of service know we aren't mind-readers. It would be totally irresponsible to start rewriting anything. The comment function is as important and well-used as tracked changes for this type of revision work.

Another trap: when confronted with a not too badly written but very ambiguous sentence about a subject matter you know nothing about, as you have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's mind, you could easily change the sentence to make it perfectly grammatically correct, very nice sounding and "flowing" - and also utter technical nonsense.

As above, you'd leave a comment rather than nonsense.

Another element, more than "a small detail":

to be accepted in a UK University, you must show a sufficient command of academic English by passing the IELTS test (https://www.ielts.org/) - having your academic writing "proofread" (if not in actual fact rewritten to make it palatable) by someone else could easily be seen as academic cheating, maybe not on the same level as paying someone to simply write the whole paper, but a form of cheating nonetheless.

That would certainly be the case for pupils and under-graduate students. It isn't necessarily true at Master's level and certainly isn't true of doctoral papers. In my experience, as someone who offers the service, those are the texts that need, and have a budget for, professional monolingual checking.


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:01
German to English
+ ...
a general principle Jul 26, 2019

A poorly written text will take three times as long to fix as a well written text. Therefore the same per word fee for all proofreading can give you 33% of the income for an hour of work for the one, than you would earn doing the other. Therefore hourly fees is the only way to go. Of course clients, especially middlemen hiring "proofreaders" would prefer a per word rate because then the poorly written text will not be a problem for them, and they will still make money while staying competitiv... See more
A poorly written text will take three times as long to fix as a well written text. Therefore the same per word fee for all proofreading can give you 33% of the income for an hour of work for the one, than you would earn doing the other. Therefore hourly fees is the only way to go. Of course clients, especially middlemen hiring "proofreaders" would prefer a per word rate because then the poorly written text will not be a problem for them, and they will still make money while staying competitive price-wise. They are not spending the time fixing the text: you are. These middlemen are forever trying to play the role of employer by quoting what kind of pricing they are willing to pay, hoping (and managing) to ensnare new hopefuls and the gullible. When you freelance, you must become the decision-maker since you are the hired professional. I would not quote a per-word fee on unseen material, because one cannot know what the work will entail. When I proofread or edit, which I rarely take on, then I quote after seeing the material. I may give a rough estimate of the total, which will be generous to my benefit, which I will reduce if the amount of time spent is less than the time estimated. I tell clients this in advance.

If proofreading somebody's paper or other writing, I'd want to make sure that I can be in contact with the writer so as to double check things.
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Sheila Wilson
Daryo
 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:01
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
I don't want to debate for debate's sake but, Jul 26, 2019

Daryo wrote:
Another trap: when confronted with a not too badly written but very ambiguous sentence about a subject matter you know nothing about, as you have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's mind, you could easily change the sentence to make it perfectly grammatically correct, very nice sounding and "flowing" - and also utter technical nonsense.


Following your logic, all professors in universities in the UK and in the USA will need to be bilingual, otherwise they will not be able to work with their students, simply because they "have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's (the student's) mind" (quoted from what you wrote above). Again following your logic, a professor can only work with students that share a native language with him or her because only in that way can he or she really understand what is "in the writer's (the student's) mind".

[Edited at 2019-07-26 21:21 GMT]


 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:01
Serbian to English
+ ...
You are pretty obviously misinterpreting Jul 26, 2019

jyuan_us wrote:

Daryo wrote:
Another trap: when confronted with a not too badly written but very ambiguous sentence about a subject matter you know nothing about, as you have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's mind, you could easily change the sentence to make it perfectly grammatically correct, very nice sounding and "flowing" - and also utter technical nonsense.


Following your logic, all professors in universities in the UK and in the USA will need to be bilingual, otherwise they will not be able to work with their students, simply because they "have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's (the student's) mind" (quoted from what you wrote above). Again following your logic, a professor can only work with students that share a native language with him or her because only in that way can he or she really understand what is "in the writer's (the student's) mind".

[Edited at 2019-07-26 21:21 GMT]


what I said.

I don't know by which twist of logic you arrived to your conclusions, but I can't see nowhere in what I said anything that would imply such thing.

My point is that if you study in UK / US you should be able to write your academic papers well enough that this kind of "bilingualism" of professors is not necessary .i.e. the onus to make an effort is on the students - the students themselves, not "proofreaders".


 
Mark Harris
Mark Harris
France
Local time: 10:01
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Makes sense Jul 27, 2019

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

A poorly written text will take three times as long to fix as a well written text. Therefore the same per word fee for all proofreading can give you 33% of the income for an hour of work for the one, than you would earn doing the other. Therefore hourly fees is the only way to go. Of course clients, especially middlemen hiring "proofreaders" would prefer a per word rate because then the poorly written text will not be a problem for them, and they will still make money while staying competitive price-wise. They are not spending the time fixing the text: you are. These middlemen are forever trying to play the role of employer by quoting what kind of pricing they are willing to pay, hoping (and managing) to ensnare new hopefuls and the gullible. When you freelance, you must become the decision-maker since you are the hired professional. I would not quote a per-word fee on unseen material, because one cannot know what the work will entail. When I proofread or edit, which I rarely take on, then I quote after seeing the material. I may give a rough estimate of the total, which will be generous to my benefit, which I will reduce if the amount of time spent is less than the time estimated. I tell clients this in advance.

If proofreading somebody's paper or other writing, I'd want to make sure that I can be in contact with the writer so as to double check things.


That all sounds about right. I suppose, since I have just started out and am trying to gain experience, I don't feel I have the confidence to make stipulations such as pricing per hour etc. You are right, of course, that I shouldn't let agencies take advantage of me. I suppose I have just assumed that decent agencies/clients won't take me seriously until I have more experience behind me. This particular agency is clearly not searching for fully-qualified proofreaders since they specified in their advertisement that they are looking for "graduates" to work as proofreaders.


 
Mark Harris
Mark Harris
France
Local time: 10:01
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Jul 27, 2019

Barbara Carrara wrote:

Hello again, Mark

Sorry to barge in again, but I'd like to further emphasize the fact that a 'language professional' should make sure they know their onions before they engage in tasks that may turn out to be detrimental to their professionalism.

Mark Harris wrote:
While I don't have any specific training in proofreading per say, I do now have a couple of years' experience translating and proofreading documents that have been translated into English, so I feel fairly confident doing this type of work.


The glaring mistake in the above snippet should not have made it to your proofed post.
Just saying (I'm giving you a clue here).


You are right, of course. I have made a couple of rather silly errors in each of my posts. Thank you for pointing it out.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:01
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
You'd better go back to your first post in this thread to realize who has been misinterpreting Jul 27, 2019

Daryo wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

Daryo wrote:
Another trap: when confronted with a not too badly written but very ambiguous sentence about a subject matter you know nothing about, as you have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's mind, you could easily change the sentence to make it perfectly grammatically correct, very nice sounding and "flowing" - and also utter technical nonsense.


Following your logic, all professors in universities in the UK and in the USA will need to be bilingual, otherwise they will not be able to work with their students, simply because they "have no idea what is the "original" that was in the writer's (the student's) mind" (quoted from what you wrote above). Again following your logic, a professor can only work with students that share a native language with him or her because only in that way can he or she really understand what is "in the writer's (the student's) mind".

[Edited at 2019-07-26 21:21 GMT]


what I said.

I don't know by which twist of logic you arrived to your conclusions, but I can't see nowhere in what I said anything that would imply such thing.

My point is that if you study in UK / US you should be able to write your academic papers well enough that this kind of "bilingualism" of professors is not necessary .i.e. the onus to make an effort is on the students - the students themselves, not "proofreaders".


Starting from there, you may read every of your posts, and you will realize pretty easily who has been misinterpreting.




[Edited at 2019-07-27 21:24 GMT]


 
Mark Harris
Mark Harris
France
Local time: 10:01
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Update Jul 30, 2019

I actually received a response from this agency after I quoted. They advised me that there are three different services that they offer, and they pay different rates for each:

"We usually pay 3 rates for proofreading(basic proofreading), copy-editing(deep proofreading) and paraphrasing. The basic proofreading needs to check the grammar/spelling/referencing system/vocabulary using/sentence structures(if necessary). Based on the basic proofreading, copy-editing(deep proofreading) requ
... See more
I actually received a response from this agency after I quoted. They advised me that there are three different services that they offer, and they pay different rates for each:

"We usually pay 3 rates for proofreading(basic proofreading), copy-editing(deep proofreading) and paraphrasing. The basic proofreading needs to check the grammar/spelling/referencing system/vocabulary using/sentence structures(if necessary). Based on the basic proofreading, copy-editing(deep proofreading) requires rewriting or additional editing to make the language to be more academic and "sounds native". Paraphrasing is to rewrite every sentence to avoid plagiarism/reduce similarity rate. I pay £5 per 1000 words for basic proofreading, £8 per 1000 words for deep proofreading and £15 per 1000 words for paraphrasing. Payment will be made within 24 hours once we received the completed work."

Firstly, the rates they are offering seem to be absurdly low in my opinion, and secondly, does the paraphrasing service even sound ethical? I would be concerned that rewriting an entire essay would be considered as essentially cheating. They sent me an example of a file that has been "paraphrased" and they have literally rewritten the entire essay. What do people think about the ethicality of this?

I am inclined to turn them down purely due to the rates they are offering.
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jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:01
Member (2005)
Chinese to English
Ridiculously low rates Jul 31, 2019

Mark Harris wrote:
Paraphrasing is to rewrite every sentence to avoid plagiarism/reduce similarity rate. I pay £5 per 1000 words for basic proofreading, £8 per 1000 words for deep proofreading and £15 per 1000 words for paraphrasing. Payment will be made within 24 hours once we received the completed work."


These rates are lower than the ones most agencies in India and China are willing to pay. Just stay away from the agency, or write back saying "you suck".


Mark Harris
 
Mark Harris
Mark Harris
France
Local time: 10:01
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Agreed! Jul 31, 2019

jyuan_us wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:
Paraphrasing is to rewrite every sentence to avoid plagiarism/reduce similarity rate. I pay £5 per 1000 words for basic proofreading, £8 per 1000 words for deep proofreading and £15 per 1000 words for paraphrasing. Payment will be made within 24 hours once we received the completed work."


These rates are lower than the ones most agencies in India and China are willing to pay. Just stay away from the agency, or write back saying "you suck".


I'm leaning towards your second suggestion


 
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