| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Proz.com membership: yes or no? Thread poster: Rasa Mikalauskaite
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It's my main source of new customers. Eighty percent of the approaches I get are junk, but the other 20 percent are worth the subscription many times over.
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 06:55
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| This is a popular misconception | Jun 7, 2016 |
Chris S wrote:
the site seems to target/attract the low end.
There are many sides to the site. Yes, the bottom-feeding agencies do have a high profile here, buy why is that? It's:
(a) Because they post job after job on the public job board to get as many recruits as possible. Why? Because they can't get good freelancers to do a second job for their appalling T&C, and they get so many complaints about the quality provided by those willing to accept their T&C.
(b) The forums are full of threads complaining about these bottom-feeders. We aren't so vociferous about having landed great jobs .
The reality is that there are vast numbers of us who would never work with bottom-feeders and yet still find as many jobs as we need right here on ProZ.com. I work for clients in over 20 countries each year, and have done since joining. All but a handful of those clients have come to me through this site in one way or another:
- the public job board (just a few each year, but including some really good clients)
- private jobs sent through the job system
- direct contact through my profile, often via a filtered directory search (this is the most common way)
- contacts with fellow translators and clients at in-person conferences (a few of the most lucrative).
My rates are very average (EUR 0.12 and EUR 30), but I know personally of a few translators who have much higher rates and yet manage to make membership here more than pay for itself. Remember that ProZ.com has an enormous presence in the industry and anyone Googling for "translation/translator" is 100% going to find it - and then find you if you're using the site to your best advantage.
But nobody should just pay up and then sit back and wait for the jobs to arrive. That's not how it works. Membership gives you better visibility and better chances when quoting, but unless you're in a rare pair (which is the case of the OP and hence things are a little different for her), you're still not going to come to the attention of many potential clients. KudoZ points in particular, and a strong profile in general, plus networking with other members, the PRO tag, etc, etc all play a part.
Just in case it sounds as though I'm some "ProZ.com saleswoman" , let me add that I totally agree with the criticisms Dan and others make about the site. It's far from perfect, certainly, but it's still worth the investment of time and money.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:55
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Rasa Mikalauskaite wrote:
I wasn't aware of how important kudoz points apparently are for the profile ranking. Apparently, the very ranking in the hierarchy is quite literally defined by the number of kudoz points, and the same goes for both members and non-members. I find this pretty ghastly to be honest, I don't see myself solving hundreds of questions (what about the quality of the answers?) to earn a better ranking, and I am supposed to do it regardless of whether I am a proz.com member or not??
Well, it's a good way of improving your visibility. It's also a nice thing to do on the whole. Mutual help is the way to go nowadays. Yes, there are some timewasters and there are injustices, but if you don't look at it solely as a competition but more as a community thing - ignoring the worst abuses out there - it can be very rewarding in all aspects. But nobody is forcing you.
In your EN > LT pair, if potential clients search just for the pair, regardless of any other aspects, at the moment they'll find you on page 11 - or rather they won't, because nobody would bother to look at page 11! If you pay for membership you'll automatically jump to page 3. If you then get just one answer in the pair selected best, you'll climb to halfway up page 2. In practice, clients will often select "top 3 pairs", and "native in target language". In this case you'll go right up to page 2 regardless of KudoZ points. Then again, if they want someone who specialises in accounting, you'll be right on page 1 if you pay for membership, and up to first spot with just two accepted KudoZ answers !. So it isn't as bad as you make out.
I might need profile enhancement for my second combination, EN-LT, which is basically the problem. Should I promote my two combinations separately? Since my main pair is NL-LT, I myself find it quite logical that possible clients would prefer to skip my profile and go to first-line providers of EN-LT, although I also offer it. Here, I thought, could proz.com membership help me somewhat?
Membership always helps, but as long as the pair is in the top three it should be findable. You aren't allowed two profiles.
If I might make a suggestion, it might be some of the other language pairs you offer that are putting potential clients off contacting you. In my honest, but personal, opinion, you're watering down your message dreadfully. EN RU? When you don't profess to being a native speaker of either, you don't show qualifications in Russian, and you don't live where either language is spoken? Why do you think you'll do those jobs better than other professionals? There's so much choice on the Internet that we're all well-advised to promote ourselves as doing what we do best, even if our USP isn't truly unique.
| | | | | And Invoicing | Jun 7, 2016 |
John Fossey wrote:
For me, the simple value is in the losses I haven't incurred when I declined jobs that the BlueBoard reports showed I would not have got paid for.
In any given year, I am sure I would have lost much more than the annual fee, had I not had that information.
I've never regretted my paid membership. Although I haven't kept detailed records, I'm almost certain that the membership has more than paid for itself, probably a few times over, in projects from clients found through Proz. As John pointed out, besides new clients and jobs, there are some nice extras on Proz. I too use the BlueBoard to screen new clients. There's so much 'grade inflation' on the board that it takes some getting used to, but lots of reviews plus an almost perfect score generally mean a good payer.
I also love the Proz invoicing tool. It's simple and intuitive to use, and you're going to have to send invoices one way or another at some point.
I've never been interested in the Certified Pro program, but some apparently like it. Kudoz has plenty of detractors, but I've found the Termbase to be a valuable starting point for difficult terms. No way to know for certain, but I do have a hunch that some agencies/PMs read the forums and that posting here may occasionally produce a new contact (plus the forums are a great way to relax at the end of the day).
I do think the value of Proz depends quite a bit on your language pair, and perhaps you could try PMing some other NL>LT translators on Proz to see how they like it?
[Edited at 2016-06-07 15:02 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-06-07 16:56 GMT]
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| Differing experience | Jun 7, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: This is a popular misconception Chris S wrote:
the site seems to target/attract the low end.
Or is it a fact?
Obviously I can only speak for myself and - to a degree - my three language pairs. But I only get stupid job offers. This didn't change when I was a member. And being a fundamentally kind-hearted soul I have/had plenty of KudoZ points. So while I don't make any effort to drum up work here, I can't see that I'm unusually unattractive. The conclusion has to be that good customers just don't come here.
Maybe things are different for the big languages, or maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes a good customer. I wouldn't actually want to work for customers in 20 countries or even 20 customers. I've never used the Blue Board and wouldn't want to be in a position where I needed to. I want to (and do) work for a handful of high-paying regulars. Yes, I want the Earth! And luckily for the time being I have it.
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 07:55
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Usefulness of the BB | Jun 7, 2016 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The lack of objectivity in the Blue Board concept (as compared to a similar e-venue that asks objective questions on the experience) requires an ability to "read between the lines" from the savvy Blue Board user.
I could name (if it were allowed here) a few translation agencies that uphold IMO some despicable payment practices. So they get bad feedback. Every time their declining composite LWA crosses a specific threshold, they work some way to get a reinvigorating stream of 5s within a week or so to lift it again. Though veeery suspicious, further scrutiny makes it look on the up-and-up.
I wouldn't know, but it should be very easy to get one or two dozen translators to do a 50-word translation each, pay them majestic rates COD, and their (emphatically required) feedback would have the same weight as the one coming from a translator who did tens of thousand words for the same firm, and got paid only for part of them several months later than agreed.
I, too, have noticed these companies that manage to miraculously increase their LWA from 1 or 2 to several 5's within a week. Checking into this magical performance enhancement, I soon discovered that one of the ways to accomplish this is the simply "you give me a good (the best) LWA, and I'll give you a good WWA" deal.
The BB can be helpful if one exercises a little more caution when there's a 1 or a 2 rating - regardless of how many 5's are on top of those.
I've been a member since 2009, and did manage to secure my first /well paid) jobs from the Job Board, so they did pay for the membership.
However, the outsourcers seem to have changed over the years because the rates being offered nowadays are at the low end. If the job board would stop accepting peanuts-jobs being allowed to be posted, then I'd find it a little more attractive again.
The decision whether a ProZ-membership is beneficial or not is, of course, up to each individual.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Proz.com membership: yes or no?
Yes, but only for certain things.
I don't rely on Proz for work, although at the beginning it was useful. I am continuing my subscription mainly because I value the interaction with other translators and, yes, very occasionally someone sees my profile and contacts me about work, although in 9 cases out of 10 when they hear what my rate is, they disappear. It isn't that I'm expensive; it's just that there are so many people out there hopin... See more Proz.com membership: yes or no?
Yes, but only for certain things.
I don't rely on Proz for work, although at the beginning it was useful. I am continuing my subscription mainly because I value the interaction with other translators and, yes, very occasionally someone sees my profile and contacts me about work, although in 9 cases out of 10 when they hear what my rate is, they disappear. It isn't that I'm expensive; it's just that there are so many people out there hoping to get a good translator, with the right profile, for peanuts.
Since the TM-Town thing was introduced I am less happy with Proz and am considering whether or not to continue. I would miss the interaction. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | @Tom - Interaction is still possible as a non-paying member/user | Jun 7, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote:
Since XXXX was introduced I am less happy with Proz and am considering whether or not to continue. I would miss the interaction.
I stopped paying for usership several years ago on censorship grounds (I no longer wanted to pay for the privilege of being haphazardly censored), but as you can see it is still possible to interact.
Maybe I should add that I use the site for finding good translators, not for finding work.
It's very useful as a Yellow Pages for freelance translators and outsourcers alike. A marketplace, with the customary fraudsters.
But we had all these discussions before, like 10 years ago. Maybe they've been made hard to find.
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| Personal investment | Jun 8, 2016 |
Rasa Mikalauskaite wrote:
... I don't see myself solving hundreds of questions (what about the quality of the answers?) to earn a better ranking...
Why not? The more you invest in a subscription, the more return you get. And the quality of your replies may also contribute to make you stand out.
I subscribed to the ATA for one year "to see", didn't do anything about it, didn't get anything from it (apart from unread paper magazines past headlines) and didn't renew my membership. From my perspective, the ATA subscription was an utter waste of money and felled trees. But some people get involved in ATA activities, get more visibility than I, and therefore can say that it's worth it.
By the same token, as I am an active user of proz.com, the cost of my membership is peanuts compared to the benefits I get from it, from the BB comments and web hosting to direct agency contacts and general tidbits about the business and their players. Even visitor IP addresses.
And if/when I realise that this site no longer delivers what I expect from it (more boring/repeated/amateur forum topics, quality of contacts, evil adverts...), I hear that it is dead easy to not renew my membership.
Philippe
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
I stopped paying for usership several years ago on censorship grounds (I no longer wanted to pay for the privilege of being haphazardly censored), but as you can see it is still possible to interact.
Indeed; if I understand you correctly, you are not paying for Proz membership any longer but having visited your profile I see it is very complete and that it includes several statements that some might construe as deleterious to Proz. I am impressed! I also note that you are a "Kudoz editor". What is a Kudoz editor?
[Edited at 2016-06-08 12:44 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 07:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Rasa, re: results ranking | Jun 8, 2016 |
Rasa Mikalauskaite wrote:
I might need profile enhancement for my second combination, EN-LT, which is basically the problem. Should I promote my two combinations separately? Since my main pair is NL-LT, I myself find it quite logical that possible clients would prefer to skip my profile and go to first-line providers of EN-LT, although I also offer it.
Paid membership will place you higher on a results list, if the results list has more than one page. Answering a certain number of KudoZ questions in that specific language combination and getting the points for it will also help. I'm not sure what else affects directory ranking, but I suspect number of years registered at ProZ.com is taken into account.
It is absolutely forbidden to secretly team up with another translator in the same language combination and ask various questions on KudoZ and answering them and making sure that the two of you always give the points to each other, but I suspect it happens a lot.
I wasn't aware of how important kudoz points apparently are for the profile ranking. Apparently, the very ranking in the hierarchy is quite literally defined by the number of kudoz points, and the same goes for both members and non-members.
No, paid members are listed first, and non-paid members are listed on subsequent pages.
For example, a simple search for EN-LT translators shows 59 paying members (spread over 3 pages) and 1041 non-paying members (spread over about 40 pages). Right now, you're at the very bottom of page 8.
If you were to get paid membership, and gather no KudoZ points, you'd be bumped up to the bottom of page 3 (i.e. the last page of paying members).
If you want to reach the bottom of page 4 (i.e. the first page of non-paying members), you need to gather 51 KudoZ points. If you gather no KudoZ points at all, but you get paid membership, it'll bump you up to the bottom of page 3. If you want to reach the bottom of page 1, you'll need paid membership plus 17 KudoZ points.
I find this pretty ghastly to be honest, I don't see myself solving hundreds of questions (what about the quality of the answers?) to earn a better ranking...
You only need to gather more points than the other translators who would appear in the same result. The reason why KudoZ points were made so important to directory ranking is to encourage translators to answer KudoZ questions. Otherwise fewer questions would ever get answered.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Absolutely forbidden, except that.... | Jun 8, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
It is absolutely forbidden to secretly team up with another translator in the same language combination and ask various questions on KudoZ and answering them and making sure that the two of you always give the points to each other, but I suspect it happens a lot.
I can't prove it but I'm quite certain this happens. Nothing else could explain the sometimes inane Kudoz questions I see, to which any fool with even a passing knowledge of the source language would know the answer.
In the end, the value of Proz depends on what we all depend on in life generally: that 99.9% of the people with whom you interact will behave honestly and ethically, and will not cheat.
Unfortunately in some countries/cultures, cheating is thought clever and those who don't cheat are seen as stupid. I won't mention any countries in particular.
[Edited at 2016-06-08 16:20 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Off the scale | Jun 8, 2016 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
My rates are very average (EUR 0.12 and EUR 30)
Those rates would be completely off the scale in my language pair - I charge less and am constantly rejected as being "expensive". Maybe I need to polish up my French, which used to be quite good....
[Edited at 2016-06-08 16:26 GMT]
| | | | | Wrong business, not wrong language? | Jun 8, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
My rates are very average (EUR 0.12 and EUR 30) Those rates would be completely off the scale in my language pair - I charge less and am constantly rejected as being "expensive". Maybe I need to polish up my French, which used to be quite good.... [Edited at 2016-06-08 16:26 GMT]
£25 per hour x 30 billable hours a week x 45 weeks a year = £35,000 turnover
That's sod all for an experienced professional, and that's before dead time and costs.
My garage, even my bike shop, charge more than that per hour, and that's Welsh prices, not London prices.
Beats me why translators collectively accept these rates.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Chris S wrote:
Beats me why translators collectively accept these rates.
Try Italian to English and see how much you can charge.
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