| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Can someone touting for work afford to be rude? Thread poster: Tony M
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Markus Nystrom 
United States
Local time: 08:14
Swedish to English
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| As Bismarck might say | Nov 1, 2014 |
When you have to kill hopes of a collaboration, it costs nothing to be polite.
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 15:14
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Very unprofessional | Nov 1, 2014 |
Hi Tony,
although this was an experience nobody wants, try not to let it ruin your day/night.
Some people apparently don't know how their writing comes across to others, so she might have believed that you were "desperately" waiting for her collaboration request, and was shocked that you denied even knowing her.
However, there is no excuse for such unprofessional behavior like yelling at you by capitalizing "YOU", and demanding that you delete her from your... See more Hi Tony,
although this was an experience nobody wants, try not to let it ruin your day/night.
Some people apparently don't know how their writing comes across to others, so she might have believed that you were "desperately" waiting for her collaboration request, and was shocked that you denied even knowing her.
However, there is no excuse for such unprofessional behavior like yelling at you by capitalizing "YOU", and demanding that you delete her from your contacts. The latter is even funny since you have no recollection of ever having contacted her. So why should you have had her in your contacts in the first place?
In fact, I think she should have been happy that you've pointed out the flaws in her CV. We all make mistakes and then tend to overlook them, too - that's what makes us human. My CV's come in 3 languages, all proof-read by native speaker in the LSP industry.
Samuel Murray wrote: Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
There are two sides to every story, and we haven't heard hers. We may never hear it, but I think Tony's description of it can be relied upon.
I agree with Samuel here 100% because, although you and I have never worked together, there has been some contact on a more colloquial basis between us. So yes, I do trust your story (if you wish to call it a "story".)
Just file it under unpleasant experience (File 13), move on and enjoy your life.
All the best,
Thayenga
[Edited at 2014-11-01 14:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I also have no doubt that Tony's story can be relied upon | Nov 1, 2014 |
However, as Samuel says, we don't know how the person in question perceived his reply. That is what I meant by two sides to every story.
| | | | | Unsolicited criticism | Nov 1, 2014 |
I'm not sure that I agree that unsolicited criticism is a good thing.
For instance, if I were to point out the fact that Tony missed out some apostrophes in his post -
"Surely the best way to react to constructive criticism would be to take it on board and act upon it to improve ones CV, and thence, ones chances of getting work?"
- I would regard myself as being rude, pompous, etc. What right have I to criticise his grammar in this ... See more I'm not sure that I agree that unsolicited criticism is a good thing.
For instance, if I were to point out the fact that Tony missed out some apostrophes in his post -
"Surely the best way to react to constructive criticism would be to take it on board and act upon it to improve ones CV, and thence, ones chances of getting work?"
- I would regard myself as being rude, pompous, etc. What right have I to criticise his grammar in this way? I wouldn't do it.
[Edited at 2014-11-01 14:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-11-01 14:24 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| And anyway... | Nov 1, 2014 |
Elizabeth Tamblin wrote: I'm not sure that I agree that unsolicited criticism is a good thing. For instance, if I were to point out the fact that Tony missed out some apostrophes in his post - "Surely the best way to react to constructive criticism would be to take it on board and act upon it to improve ones CV, and thence, ones chances of getting work?" - I would regard myself as being rude, pompous, etc. What right have I to criticise his grammar in this way? I wouldn't do it. [Edited at 2014-11-01 14:23 GMT] [Edited at 2014-11-01 14:24 GMT]
And anyway that should be"one's", not "ones".
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Serbian to English
+ ...
| yes, if deserved - and you could be bothered | Nov 1, 2014 |
as a general rule, there is no need to be rude to anyone.
If for no other reasons, because usually better results are achieved by not being rude...
But as with any rule, there are exceptions.
I remember answering years ago to an ad from someone hopeful to start a translation agency.
Now, if someone is just starting a new business, that's not in itself a reason to not get involved; on the contrary, it can be an advantage if later the agency turns out to be s... See more as a general rule, there is no need to be rude to anyone.
If for no other reasons, because usually better results are achieved by not being rude...
But as with any rule, there are exceptions.
I remember answering years ago to an ad from someone hopeful to start a translation agency.
Now, if someone is just starting a new business, that's not in itself a reason to not get involved; on the contrary, it can be an advantage if later the agency turns out to be successful.
As I was talking on the phone, I quickly realized that that person had no idea whatsoever what translating entails, and when I heard the "Swiss language" and "Belgium language" mentioned, I had no compunction whatsoever to dismiss very rudely that wannabe.
Nowadays, I would simply ignore it.
Back to this 4-page CV and the rest of the story. Tony was very patient, and in fact helpful. If someone doesn't want to hear constructive remarks, it's their problem, and there are better uses of one's time than talking to those who won't listen. (just block the email address and move on...) ▲ Collapse
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Well done, Tom, for pointing out Tony's error (or should I say errors - he missed the apostrophe three times), even if unsolicited!
[Edited at 2014-11-01 15:01 GMT]
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 15:14
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:
However, as Samuel says, we don't know how the person in question perceived his reply. That is what I meant by two sides to every story.
No worries, Elizabeth, I did perceive your post correctly.
Of course everything has two sides to it. And just like we don't know how the person has perceived his reply, there's still no need to be rude, especially not for any service provider. Perhaps some people cannot handle prolite and constructive criticism.
And Tom is write about the 1 mistake. But honestly, had I received such an email, I'm not sure how many mistakes I would have made...if I'd even consider replying.
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Expectations differ | Nov 1, 2014 |
Eric CM wrote:
When I send a message to someone I expect a reply. To me, not replying at all is actually quite rude. It's worse than giving me an answer, even a negative one. It means that I'm not even worthy 5 minutes of your time.
What you expect is up to you, but unless some prior relationship exists your expectations do not bind the other person in any way. You cannot demand that they allocate time or resources to you. You may indeed not even be worth 5 minutes of their time.
An unsolicited email from somebody you don't know is like having a stranger knocking on your door trying to sell you something. I don't think one has any moral obligation to respond. Of course, if it's an interesting, well-worded email I may well reply, but I am not bound to do so.
His criticism was unsolicited, but so was her initial contact. Unsolicited messages are a fact of life. And criticism (polite or not, constructive or not) is also a fact of life.
And tempestuous responses that hurt the critic's feelings are also a fact of life! Where does it end? Far better to just not respond.
There are different kinds of criticism. It's one thing to say "Here is my CV, would you mind giving me some feedback?" It's a very different thing to have somebody go through your CV unprompted and produce a list of what they consider to be errors. The context in which criticism is given does matter.
Dan
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 09:14
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I think the original email the OP received | Nov 1, 2014 |
might have been an impersonated email. In other words, it was sent by a scammer, not the person in his mind.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 15:14
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Anna Sarah Krämer Fazendeiro wrote:
The OP was being helpful by pointing out the problems he found in an unsolicited aplication. He gave the other colleague an opportunity to improve her professional presentation.
What is vindictive about that?
Nothing.
| | | | | Spot on Sam... | Nov 1, 2014 |
I think Sam is spot on when he points out that what we write is read without the nicer connotations we had in mind when writing. While in grad school I ran a house of 6 roommates ; at one point people started communicatinf through a white board in the dining roomm, and the misunderstanding/inflammation of arguments on this board lead to some of us moving out at least twice. Everything you write will be read with the reader's mindset coloring the lenses, let us never forget that...
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
German to English
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| Simplicity of approach | Nov 1, 2014 |
It seems to me, based on what Tony has written here, that his reply was unnecessary. The woman wrote asking if he required her services. He could simply have responded that he did not. Had she written asking for her CV to be proofed, then his response would have been justified. Rather than speaking colleague to colleague, he decided to take the role of teacher or person with superior knowledge. However justified his comments might have been in another context, they were not called for here. I'm ... See more It seems to me, based on what Tony has written here, that his reply was unnecessary. The woman wrote asking if he required her services. He could simply have responded that he did not. Had she written asking for her CV to be proofed, then his response would have been justified. Rather than speaking colleague to colleague, he decided to take the role of teacher or person with superior knowledge. However justified his comments might have been in another context, they were not called for here. I'm not surprised he would come across as arrogant and pedantic, whatever his true intent was.
Alternately, as others have suggested, he could simply have ignored her apparently unprofessional and possibly rude approach.
Tony, I think you brought it on yourself! Even if you meant well. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You should expect to take punches when you play verbal boxing | Nov 2, 2014 |
Dear Tony, as much as I commend your lofty intention to help this person through constructive feedback, and as much I like providing constructive feedback myself, including when it's not solicited, I think there are circumstances where it's better to bite your lips (at least if you're not ready to engage in some verbal boxing). And this was probably the case here. As others said before me, albeit worded differently, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." "Ugliness" too, and one can easily guess... See more Dear Tony, as much as I commend your lofty intention to help this person through constructive feedback, and as much I like providing constructive feedback myself, including when it's not solicited, I think there are circumstances where it's better to bite your lips (at least if you're not ready to engage in some verbal boxing). And this was probably the case here. As others said before me, albeit worded differently, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." "Ugliness" too, and one can easily guess that someone jobless, not necessarily happy, may not always be in the mood of being given unsolicited feedback - or, as they construe it, "to be lectured by someone pompous"...!
If you don't want to expose yourself to a misinterpretation of your tone (sounding patronizing instead of neutral), you should 1) use smileys, as it's one of the very few ways to add some "nonverbal cues" when communicating online, and 2) make sure what you say is purely factual and not judgmental.
1) Adding smileys may seem trivial but when you understand human communication, you understand that those little faces are very important when communicating online with people you don't know in the flesh.
Albert Mehrabian (born 1939 in an Armenian family in Iran), currently Professor Emeritus of Psychology, UCLA, has become known best by his publications on the relative importance of verbal and nonverbal messages. His findings on inconsistent messages of feelings and attitudes have been quoted throughout human communication seminars worldwide, and have also become known as the 7%-38%-55% Rule, for the relative impact of words, tone of voice, and body language, respectively, when speaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Mehrabian
Even though seemingly the results of this famous study have been somewhat overinterpreted, it's evidence that tone of voice is often more important than words. When you communicate online and leave tone of voice open to individual interpretation, you run the risk of being misunderstood or taken to task...
2) If you actually suggested her to better have her CV proofread by a native speaker (it's not clear whether you said it or not), then you crossed the border of condescension!
Regarding this point, i.e. mistakes in her English CV while she claims to be fluent enough to translate professionally into English, let me go so far as to say that in underlining her mistakes you made yourself accomplice to someone who breaches ethics, and as such, breached ethics yourself! You think it's cheeky to say that, don't you?  Think of it: You aided and abetted someone conceal the true nature of her aptitudes! You contributed to mislead clients on the true quality they can expect from her services!! If indeed you are so sound-minded, why is it that you acted against general interest? Could it be that you wanted to "lampoon" her rather than simply help her objectively? From how I see things, I'll just think you didn't anticipate that consequence.
Can someone touting for work afford to be rude?
Why not? As long as no insults are used, I think you should not make a fuss about it. From what you pasted, it doesn't sound very professional indeed (a bit coarse), but to your general question, I answer "why not". To make it clear, being the prospect, the potential buyer, doesn't make you superior to the provider. The client doesn't "oblige" the provider in giving them work! The provider doesn't need clients, clients need them! Of course, it's not necessarily in her interests, but it's another topic...
I agree with others who said you probably have better things to do than correcting ProZ low-cost spammers.
I don't want to hijack your thread, but sometimes it feels good to be a bit "rude" (or, more precisely: to be "incisive/slightly offensive"), no matter what it costs in terms of business opportunity (there's more to life than money). Not so long ago, I was asked to take a test for a translation agency specializing in finance. My agenda was chock-full but I accepted. I had to do it over a weekend, it took me about 2 hours. It was rather simple considering what I'm used to translating daily. About one month later, the result: negative! I was told, "your translation was very fluent but there were 5 major mistranslations". I was shocked! I looked into those so-called "mistranslations", and I found out that all of them were nonexistent, pure and simple made up! An acquaintance confirmed. (Supposedly, among those 5 mistranslations, I had not been able to translate "for example", "on average" and "facilitate"!!!!). Even though the person had been quite courteous and polite, in the final analysis I had been stolen more than 2 hours of my time and my ego had been hurt by some clueless assessor. I had to speak my mind, my argumentation was objective but it was also offensive, and 1) I don't think it makes me unprofessional and 2) I don't care either if it means I lost an opportunity with an agency that otherwise looked like a reliable and competent organization (probably only the external assessor was phony) because I simply don't want anymore to work for/with them (moreso as they didn't reply to my incisive yet constructive feedback). If someday they come back I'll tell them I have "special rates" for the likes of them, if you see what I mean.
Now apart from the fact that this is not the sort of language or attitude I expect from a (supposed) fellow professional on a site like ProZ.com, it seems to me the sort of thing that is clearly counter-productive in terms of this person's marketing effort.
Language was poor, no doubt, but regarding marketing, what you say is not so obvious mind you! I remember hearing some marketing scholar (maybe Godin?) claiming that in marketing, it's better to be noticed negatively than going unnoticed... hihihi! (I don't know how it can be true though).
Good post by Samuel above, spot on!
[Edited at 2014-11-02 01:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 09:14
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I would still emphasize my point | Nov 2, 2014 |
jyuan_us wrote:
might have been an impersonated email. In other words, it was sent by a scammer, not the person in his mind.
Judging from the way how the original email sender wrote, and her way of communication, I would say it is highly possible that someone's CV has been stolen and became a victim of impersonation.
To find out if this is true, you may just send an email through her profile page.
[Edited at 2014-11-02 06:27 GMT]
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