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Rates per hour for MTPE
Thread poster: F Bossard

Adrien Esparron
Local time: 05:41
Member (2007)
German to French
+ ...
MTPE vs revision Jan 10, 2018

Claudio Porcellana wrote:

the regular rate is per word, and it's usually 1/3 of the rate of a regular translation
so if your rate is e.g. 0.09 USD/source word, the MTPE will be 0.03


This "rule" could be right for the revision of an human translation, not for a MTPE, which needs much more work.

My answer is the following :



farolingo wrote:

My answer is simple: don't accept machine translation post-editing jobs.



Josefa Devesa
 

Adrien Esparron
Local time: 05:41
Member (2007)
German to French
+ ...
Not a translator's job Jan 10, 2018

farolingo wrote:

My answer is simple: don't accept machine translation post-editing jobs.



For sure!


Eiko Toda (X)
Daryo
 

John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:41
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Agree Jan 10, 2018

Adrien Esparron wrote:

Not a translator's job



Fully agree. That's not what translators trained and gained experience for.


Elizabeth Tamblin
 

Jean Dimitriadis  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 05:41
Member
English to French
+ ...
Welcome to the Machine (Translation) Jan 10, 2018

I have replied to the original topic of rating considerations for MTPE, from the perspective of a translator who is also trained as a post-editor.

But since many colleagues have mentioned it here, I would like to add that I concur with the idea translators should take a stand and be wary of accepting MTPE jobs, if at all.

In many respects, MT represents the expropriation of human effort (the vast amount of human translated data upon which MT is built) to further expropr
... See more
I have replied to the original topic of rating considerations for MTPE, from the perspective of a translator who is also trained as a post-editor.

But since many colleagues have mentioned it here, I would like to add that I concur with the idea translators should take a stand and be wary of accepting MTPE jobs, if at all.

In many respects, MT represents the expropriation of human effort (the vast amount of human translated data upon which MT is built) to further expropriate human effort (post-editing the same material at lower prices, etc.).

A quote by Cornelius Castoriadis which I came across lately is quite fitting: Capitalist technology is primarily characterized by its drive to eliminate the human element in productive labor and, in the long run, to eliminate man altogether from the productive process.

Since automated industry and the advent of computers brought the progressive elimination of the distinction between manual and intellectual labour, the above (and admittedly out of context) quote can shed some light to the current discussion on how technology developments affect or may affect translation, and how translators can or should resist such developments.

[Edited at 2018-01-11 11:26 GMT]
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Neyle
Catherine Howard
Florian Stauber
Thayenga
Christine Andersen
 

F Bossard
France
Local time: 05:41
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I do agree as well Jan 16, 2018

Thanks for bringing up enriching arguments and new slants.
From this perspective, we, as human translators should naturally take a stand against MTPE, for all the reasons aforementioned, and mainly because it dépreciates our job; our best bet, in order not to tilt at the windmills of Big Data, is to keep up with the basic tranlation rates, whatever the task...


 

farolingo
Local time: 04:41
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
Clients need to take a stand too! Jan 31, 2018

And of course, perhaps the most important element in the translation supply chain - the end client - also needs to take a stand against MTPE. There is no question that this short-sighted strategy by agencies to increase their profits will lead to poorer translated texts for clients. I'd be very interested to know if these clients are aware of this new workflow and whether they would feel let down by the agency if they knew what was going on. I'm quite sure that, as clients continue to receive tr... See more
And of course, perhaps the most important element in the translation supply chain - the end client - also needs to take a stand against MTPE. There is no question that this short-sighted strategy by agencies to increase their profits will lead to poorer translated texts for clients. I'd be very interested to know if these clients are aware of this new workflow and whether they would feel let down by the agency if they knew what was going on. I'm quite sure that, as clients continue to receive translation deliveries that are below the standards to which they are accustomed, there will be some significant blowback. Hopefully quite soon!Collapse


Eiko Toda (X)
Josefa Devesa
 

Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:41
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Hours are not all equal Jan 31, 2018

Some jobs make the time fly by, others force you to take regular breaks before your brain explodes.
Editing poor translations also has a psychological impact that needs to be compensated.

I would want at least 1.5 times my regular hourly rate for post-editing machine translations.
At 3 times my regular rate, I might even start to enjoy it


Colleen Roach, PhD
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 05:41
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Does it worth it? Jan 31, 2018

Diana Obermeyer wrote:

Some jobs make the time fly by, others force you to take regular breaks before your brain explodes.
Editing poor translations also has a psychological impact that needs to be compensated.

I would want at least 1.5 times my regular hourly rate for post-editing machine translations.
At 3 times my regular rate, I might even start to enjoy it


Hi Diana,

Think it twice. Maybe sooner than you think you won't get any post-editing machine translations, nor translations.
When you help a machine soon it will take your job away, this will be the result of your work.
Does the higher rate for post-editing worth it?

Bests,
Katalin


 

Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:41
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Not idealistic enough Jan 31, 2018

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Diana Obermeyer wrote:

Some jobs make the time fly by, others force you to take regular breaks before your brain explodes.
Editing poor translations also has a psychological impact that needs to be compensated.

I would want at least 1.5 times my regular hourly rate for post-editing machine translations.
At 3 times my regular rate, I might even start to enjoy it


Hi Diana,

Think it twice. Maybe sooner than you think you won't get any post-editing machine translations, nor translations.
When you help a machine soon it will take your job away, this will be the result of your work.
Does the higher rate for post-editing worth it?

Bests,
Katalin



There will always be a place for quality. Especially in fields that demand background knowledge.

But times change.
I don't have to travel to an office, keep an entire library of paper dictionaries, or do my formatting on a basic typewriter. Those changes didn't kill the profession, either. They just changed it.
A long past relative was that good a typist, she got a German visa on that basis, back in the days when it was classed as a profession. Unimaginable in today's world.

Automation happens everywhere.
Many moons ago, I worked in a factory. They automated and increased output by 300% while laying off 2/3 of the staff. But that enhanced the standing of my department which got a payrise and 1/3 more staff.

Nobody's volunteered to pay me premium rates for that stuff yet.
But I most certainly won't turn down a payrise for idealistic reasons.


Yukimaru Del Valle
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 05:41
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Every coin has two sides Jan 31, 2018

Diana Obermeyer wrote:

There will always be a place for quality. Especially in fields that demand background knowledge.

But times change.
I don't have to travel to an office, keep an entire library of paper dictionaries, or do my formatting on a basic typewriter. Those changes didn't kill the profession, either. They just changed it.
A long past relative was that good a typist, she got a German visa on that basis, back in the days when it was classed as a profession. Unimaginable in today's world.

Automation happens everywhere.
Many moons ago, I worked in a factory. They automated and increased output by 300% while laying off 2/3 of the staff. But that enhanced the standing of my department which got a payrise and 1/3 more staff.

Nobody's volunteered to pay me premium rates for that stuff yet.
But I most certainly won't turn down a payrise for idealistic reasons.




Do you say with the factory example that only the factory's interests is important?
And what happened those 2/3 of laid off staff? Did they receive another job somewhere else or did they have to ask for unemployment benefits? And how would you feel if you were not within that lucky 1/3 who stayed?
And would you be really happy and satisfied if you stayed in that 1/3? Wouldn't you feel remorse?

Yes, there are CAT tools for example and honestly they are amazing but those match rate % also mean that you get less. The more TMs a company has the less they will pay you. This is the same with MT. At the end you will be not needed. I'm not against technical advancements and automation but we are responsible for setting the limits. Because after reaching the limit there is no going back. And for MT it's time to draw the limit now.

Payrise now, but no payment in the near future.



[Edited at 2018-01-31 15:48 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-01-31 16:38 GMT]


Mary Rizzo
 

Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:41
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Not quite as worried Jan 31, 2018


Do you say with the factory example that only the factory's interests is important?



[Edited at 2018-01-31 15:48 GMT]


My interests are important.

There was no luck involved. I supported the process, rather than fighting it. I demanded extra pay for that support and all it entailed - especially reactions of the resistant staff. It paid off.

Equally, I believe that translators who embrace new technology will have an advantage if and when it becomes the standard. Those fighting it will have a harder time catching up.
Yet, specifically with regards to MT, I don't think it will become all that significant in the near future, not to the extent of actually putting skilled and good translators at risk.
Either way, it's not my job to make sacrifices for some perceived greater good.
I simply don't have that moral conflict.

If I were to apply the suggested logic of placing some idealism that I don't even feel above my personal situation, I'd have to turn down an enormous chunk of of my translation projects. Many of them also affect random people I've never even heard of. I don't get paid to think about them. I get paid to produce a text.


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 05:41
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
We are different Jan 31, 2018

Diana Obermeyer wrote:


Do you say with the factory example that only the factory's interests is important?



[Edited at 2018-01-31 15:48 GMT]


My interests are important.

There was no luck involved. I supported the process, rather than fighting it. I demanded extra pay for that support and all it entailed - especially reactions of the resistant staff. It paid off.
I simply don't have that moral conflict.
.


We are different.

Diana Obermeyer wrote:
If I were to apply the suggested logic of placing some idealism that I don't even feel above my personal situation, I'd have to turn down an enormous chunk of of my translation projects. Many of them also affect random people I've never even heard of. I don't get paid to think about them. I get paid to produce a text.



That's what machines do.


Mary Rizzo
 

farolingo
Local time: 04:41
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
3x the rate would be great... Feb 1, 2018

Diana Obermeyer wrote:

Some jobs make the time fly by, others force you to take regular breaks before your brain explodes.
Editing poor translations also has a psychological impact that needs to be compensated.

I would want at least 1.5 times my regular hourly rate for post-editing machine translations.
At 3 times my regular rate, I might even start to enjoy it




I would also happily do it for 3x my normal rate! Unfortunately, the big agencies believe this to be such a wonderful time-saving tool that they offer just the opposite: 1/3 of the normal rate... I managed to negotiate 2/3 of my rate, but no way is that enough. As you say, it's actually more work for less pay. This unpolished and rushed technology has the potential to kill the industry - not because it's so good, but because it's so bad.


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 05:41
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
If you see the consequences ... Feb 4, 2018

farolingo wrote:

This unpolished and rushed technology has the potential to kill the industry - not because it's so good, but because it's so bad.


Then why do you help for this technology?


 

Miriam Weiss  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2015)
Spanish to German
+ ...
I don't think human translation will be taken over by machines any time soon Feb 20, 2018

I don't share the fear that machines will take over our work any time soon. Machines are completely unable to pick up on nuances, double meanings and link appropriate background knowledge to sentences. Programming languages are less complex and I believe we may have machines write their own code and hence program themselves before they produce good quality translations.

In general, I embrace new technology and if machines were able to provide accurate quality translations, then we c
... See more
I don't share the fear that machines will take over our work any time soon. Machines are completely unable to pick up on nuances, double meanings and link appropriate background knowledge to sentences. Programming languages are less complex and I believe we may have machines write their own code and hence program themselves before they produce good quality translations.

In general, I embrace new technology and if machines were able to provide accurate quality translations, then we could certainly find other areas where we are needed. Currently, we are very far from getting any remotely usable results from machine translations. It works well enough for sentences like "Peter is watching TV". But in reality most translations needed in the industry are technical or legal translations. These translations usually require knowledge of the subject matter. whereas the machine translation doesn't even identify the subject matter, hence, is unable to interpret any context and translates merely using general database input. But even if it's literature and not technical or legal, the emphasis is on making the text sound as eloquent and well written as in the original, transmitting the imagery and emotion to the reader. Machines are not even close to doing that. Once the sentences get longer, the sentence structure will also usually be completely off. Especially, if the target language is not English but one with more complex grammar, e.g. using declensions, like German, you can be fairly certain that there won't be a single correct sentence in your machine translation.

Today I just saw a machine translation result for fairly simple internet announcements, English to German. Incorrect grammar all the way through, half the words still in English, including words like "black" just because it was capitalized in the source text, many incorrect terms, nonsensical sentence structure, incomplete sentences (missing subject or object) etc. There is even a segment with just two words, yet 2 and a half mistakes in the "translation" - wrong term, wrong declension, questionable term. The text wasn't just poor quality, but completely incomprehensible. I firmly believe all translators should reject MTPE, not because it is ruining our job and may help machines to take over, but because clients need to learn that, at least at the moment, these translations are complete and utter garbage. If they saved a minute of my time I would run every text through Google translate before starting a translation. I obviously never do, because it doesn't even save a second of my time. Due to turning this into a review I now have to read twice as much, the source and the "translation", I still have to translate the source text in my head and then type most of it into the target segment/document + delete all the garbage. It'll just add additional tasks that will need to be performed for every single sentence. Worst case scenario, the client also wants to see all the changes in mark up. So, on top of everything you will be trying to make an effort to keep as much as possible of the original "translation" and the mark up format is more tiring during the review, which takes up even more time and will likely make your brain explode.

I completely disagree with the idea that if you translate 300 words per hour, you may be able to translate 500 with MT. If anything it's the other way around. If you usually translate 500 per hour, you'll likely be down to 300 using MT.

[Edited at 2018-02-20 12:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-02-20 12:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-02-20 12:22 GMT]
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Neyle
Dorothy Schaps
Florian Stauber
Eiko Toda (X)
Marilia Sette Câmara
 
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