| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Machine Translations: Should Proz.com advertise MT jobs? Thread poster: Lingopro
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 01:15
Greek to English
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Tomas Mosler, MITI wrote:
I'm sorry but I miss the link. The poor quality of some human translations was here long before MT, or? Also, I think you generalize a bit, as if all agencies were paying 1 cent and producing garbage. (NB I don't run an agency.)
I was not talking about quality at all. By "brochures", I mean the ones that agencies use to advertise themselves in order to charge the end-client 30-35 cents per word. Translation cost is so high for some end-clients, that it has become a big discussion in their meetings.
Context? If you have translators working for peanuts "just to check something", sure, context will be fine at the end. Lately there are jobs circulating from agencies that used to be ok, and they' re asking for a "quick look of 10,000 words" for $30.
[Edited at 2013-06-07 15:26 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 11:45
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | That could be an explanation | Jun 7, 2013 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I was not talking about quality at all. By "brochures", I mean the ones that agencies use to advertise themselves in order to charge the end-client 30-35 cents per word. Translation cost is so high for some end-clients, that it has become a big discussion in their meetings.
35 cents a word! If that is true, no wonder end clients are clamouring for MT.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 08:15
Italian to English
In memoriam | Διάσημες τελευταίες λέξεις (Famous Last Words) | Jun 7, 2013 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Context? If you have translators working for peanuts "just to check something", sure, context will be fine at the end. Lately there are jobs circulating from agencies that used to be ok, and they' re asking for a "quick look of 10,000 words" for $30.
"Just give it a quick once-over. It won't take you long".
From the Guinness Book of Famous Last Words.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 01:15
Greek to English
+ ...
On the other hand, if we can convince agencies that they should do more to retain their current working models by explaining to their clients (the companies and corporations who use translation) the advantage of human translation, then agencies would work to our advantage.
They already know that the reason they can charge to their clients 30-35 cents per word, is that they say "we use humans".
The vast majority of them are actually even lying to the point of saying that their translators are "internal".
Here's the problem: When MT takes over a much larger volume, agencies will contact translators, asking them to help them in their fight against MT. However, translators will not be motivated enough to do that. Translators will think "why should I join the agency in a fight against MT, so that they start sending jobs at very low rates again?".
Most translators are making peanuts, so they' re not really losing - they can move to other jobs where they will have insurance, promotions, days off, human interaction, etc. etc. Very few translators have enough vested interest to help agencies win a war against future itself.
Notice how automated project management systems have already reduced the number of project managers - there's cost pressure in the system. Some agencies will do other things, some others will just close. Same for translators, more or less. Some will remain translating highly specialized content, some will just edit generic MT content, and most will not be making their rent anymore and will just leave.
You know, it happened in so many industries... there's actually even a term out there, the "automation of knowledge based work".
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 01:15
Greek to English
+ ...
| You didn't know that? | Jun 7, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I was not talking about quality at all. By "brochures", I mean the ones that agencies use to advertise themselves in order to charge the end-client 30-35 cents per word. Translation cost is so high for some end-clients, that it has become a big discussion in their meetings.
35 cents a word! If that is true, no wonder end clients are clamouring for MT.
Well, you didn't know that? That's the average price (medical and pharma even higher). The average lower prices among US agencies for offers to the government are 0.25 - 0.28 PLUS formatting $70-$90 per hour (!).
Large high tech companies that are more familiar with translation processes are already doing their own trados calculations.
Other large companies have assigned to specific people in their HR departments to monitor translation cost and ask for discounts. Imagine a 25 language project where translators and editors are paid only for words, and the agency charges three times that plus formatting (!) - a fee which the translator never enjoyed.
If you don't believe me, grab an English document from your market and ask any large agency for a quote for just one language, including formatting etc.
Privately, I can send you at least one link with an official contract.
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I was not talking about quality at all.
Alright, so what did you mean with this please:
"A translator that is poorly paid does not have enough vested interest in the business. He won't jump in to support the agency... and the end-client will say "well, I'm not convinced by your brochures - I can get very similar content from Google"."?
- I assumed (perhaps wrongly so) that a "poorly paid" translator would provide worse work which would not convince the client (compared to GT). Apart from that, what other measure than quality can be applied to identify "similiar content"? I would appreciate if you can explain a bit as I'm somewhat lost in your idea. :)
By "brochures", I mean the ones that agencies use to advertise themselves
But that should still be top-notch quality, or?
Translation cost is so high for some end-clients, that it has become a big discussion in their meetings.
But was translation ultra-cheap 20 or 10 years ago?
Context? If you have translators working for peanuts "just to check something", sure, context will be fine at the end.
This ("fine") you mean seriously?
Lately there are jobs circulating from agencies that used to be ok, and they' re asking for a "quick look of 10,000 words" for $30.
Either somebody takes the job, and the agency will keep on going.
Or nobody takes the job, and the agency will change its pricing policy or cease to provide "quick look" service or cease to exist (or all of these).
But I'm not sure how could MT eradicate all agencies. (Maybe it will, I'm just missing an argument for this that would apply to every agency, not only to some special examples.)
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 01:15
Greek to English
+ ...
Giles Watson wrote:
Διάσημες τελευταίες λέξεις (Famous Last Words)
Ha ha, yes, that's a perfect example of the project that will be done for free (as a "favor") by 2-3 human translators, giving them the impression that they' re busy and appreciated.
"This ("fine") you mean seriously?"
Yes, they will do their best, because they do not want to lose the client.
There is an interview on-line by a CEO of a large agency, warning against the risks of MT in legal projects. What she doesn't say, is that her own agency has been sending MT translations (into English) to translators to "fix them up", even if they don't know the source language. They are asking translators "to fix the grammar and syntax in order for the document to sound natural" - yes, from translators that do not speak the source language.
To be fair, sometimes these are client requests. Clients want an MT rough draft when they already know the case, in order to decide which parts they will mark for actual translation.
Some other clients are asking "a summary" - and they pay well for it, but agencies keep such a huge part of the fee that most translators will say "I'd rather do something else". A lawyer in Chicago that used to work with an agency, recently assigned me a "summary" of more than 30 pages (it was about 10,000 words). He offered me $1,800 flat fee. That is, approximately $0.18/word to just summarize the content. He thought that was the normal... because that's how much he was paying the agency for a summary.
"But was translation ultra-cheap 20 or 10 years ago?"
No, but they had more money back then, and older managers who were used to it. The younger ones are used to "free electronic-based services and google translate" - so they are not comfortable with paying such amounts.
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I was not talking about quality at all. By "brochures", I mean the ones that agencies use to advertise themselves in order to charge the end-client 30-35 cents per word. Translation cost is so high for some end-clients, that it has become a big discussion in their meetings.
35 cents a word! If that is true, no wonder end clients are clamouring for MT.
I could say "only 35 cents?" but I'm not sure whether it wouldn't be considered a flame. :) So just quickly - if you have (just an example, obviously rates can be higher or lower) a translator working for 14 cents, editor for 6 cents, then some costs for DTP etc., salaries for PMs, margin for the agency, I don't think it is that high price (relatively).
(And if the translator does the job for an agency for 14 cents, he could have reasons to eventually charge more if working directly for the end-client - even if only because of higher project management demands. And here we talk about 14 cents / word = about 40 EUR/USD per one hour. As far as I can say there are translators with direct clients who charge 100+ EUR per an hour [and even more as there is no limit]; apparently these clients could have saved some money by just switching to the "expensive" agency, but for whatever reason they don't do it.)
And I also think it shouldn't be forgotten that (good) agencies provide additional value (for both the client and the translator), they are not just pure "resellers".
But of course in case this debate would be limited by the "most translators are making peanuts" axiom/"fate" there likely wouldn't be any optimistic outcome - but that would be kind of the same then with or without agencies and/or MTs.
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 01:15
Greek to English
+ ...
| Almost all... | Jun 7, 2013 |
But I'm not sure how could MT eradicate all agencies.
Gradually, yes, almost all of them. Google eradicated the vast majority of human-based search services. There is an actual active effort for this - to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for "slow human based translations".
Some people are still buying the "printed paper" because they are romantics or older, but we do not have such luxury. We do not sell to everyone, only documents that need to be translated. Our market is much smaller than the market of newspapers or romantics.
"I could say "only 35 cents?"
Exactly - some clients pay half a dollar per word. That is why many of them are now asking for TM discounts, and agencies are actually advertising them (competition...).
Have you noticed that even in marketing/internal communications, you find double the amount of "identical blocks of text"? They' re doing that for a purpose.
There was a "Boom" in this translation market due to globalization and the EU regulations (that demanded translations in all EU languages), but the machines will take over, more and more, and if the EU adopts an "official language", there goes half the market (the "English into other" will not be needed anymore).
It is amazing how fragile is our market. One such regulation can just erase 30% of the global volume.
I see it as "Another market boom that gave the impression of a perpetual situation". The same impression that home decorators had in the U.S. during the housing boom... too bad that so many people based their life assumptions on it.
Lucky and blessed will be the ones that have a "plan B" for their lives and careers. Because there won't be enough "meat" for all these people that accumulated during the boom years.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 11:45
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Very illuminating | Jun 8, 2013 |
Thank you Eleftherios Kritikakis and Tomas Mosler for your very illuminating posts on the working of agencies and the rates they charge, as well as on the thinking of end clients regarding their translation needs.
Much of what you said was new information for me that significantly changes my view of the translation industry, rates and agencies.
| | | | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 09:15
Hebrew to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | More valid then ever... | Jun 10, 2013 |
Doesn't it make the question of this thread more valid than ever?!
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 11:45
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Curious job for MT | Jun 11, 2013 |
This seems to be a job most unsuited for MT - tourism and hotel descriptions. One would have thought that this would require creative effort which MT is unsuited for.
Or has MT encroached on this area too, while we were busily arguing its relevance here?
| | | | | Determining whether MT jobs make sense or not | Nov 8, 2013 |
I think that if the compensation of fair and reasonable in terms of the post-editing work there is not reason to consider a PEMT job differently from any job that requires you to use available TM
I have described this is more detail in t... See more I think that if the compensation of fair and reasonable in terms of the post-editing work there is not reason to consider a PEMT job differently from any job that requires you to use available TM
I have described this is more detail in this post
http://kv-emptypages.blogspot.com/2013/11/translator-strategies-for-dealing-with.html ▲ Collapse
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I have summarized my two main points why I'm cautious about MT in my recent blog post here:
http://www.englishczechtranslator.com/blog/why-i-dont-think-supporting-machine-translation-systems-is-a-good-idea/
Kirti: "no reason to consider a PEMT job differently from any job that requires you t... See more I have summarized my two main points why I'm cautious about MT in my recent blog post here:
http://www.englishczechtranslator.com/blog/why-i-dont-think-supporting-machine-translation-systems-is-a-good-idea/
Kirti: "no reason to consider a PEMT job differently from any job that requires you to use available TM"
I dare to disagree, not only for reasons outlined in my blog. (Of course, those reasons may not be the case with every project, but anyway.) Technical aspects aside, TM contains human translation. Professionally, I find it somewhat derogatory to reprocess/recreate something "soulless", without a human touch (at least as long as the difference is noticeable) just because someone wants to save money or time.
Up to everybody, but IMHO words are not bricks - I have the impression that PEMT adds or supports the routine/robotic approach to translation (TM might be sometimes perceived as having similar effect, but it is not the same thing) which compromises the genuine creativity and joyful work. ▲ Collapse
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