| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Machine Translations: Should Proz.com advertise MT jobs? Thread poster: Lingopro
|
|---|
Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:33
Hebrew to English
| I'd even say that's overstretching.... | May 29, 2013 |
Giles Watson wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
Hmmm....just because there's a demand, it doesn't mean we have to supply it. Like I said earlier, turkeys voting for Christmas....
Then market yourself as a swan, Ty. By and large, MT is the turkey 
Worse! I'd say it's battery hen chicken!
| | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 11:33
Hebrew to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Second career | May 29, 2013 |
Giles Watson wrote:Ornithology
Ty Kendall wrote:
turkeys voting for Christmas....
Then market yourself as a swan, Ty.
By and large, MT is the turkey
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
(I now put my crystal ball back in the box, thank you!)
Well now I'm glad to have started this topic - not only did I learn that many of us have a sense of humor I now suspect some of you have a second profession to fall back on if MT will be perfected in our days... namely reading crystal balls and ornithology
Thank you all for participating in this engaging discussion - I still think proz.com should not post MT jobs as long as members pay for membership because it is like giving someone candy then slapping them on the face for eating sweets.
Happy words to you all 
[Edited at 2013-05-29 19:19 GMT]
| | | | | A Cautionary Tale | May 29, 2013 |
Once upon a time, when I were a lad, there were some chaps called weavers, who got very cross when someone invented a mechanical weaving machine. They said it wasn't natural, and couldn't do the same as what a real craftsman weaver could do. They hopped up and down a bit, broke a few machines and then died of starvation. There aren't many weavers now. Except the ones working the machines, and there aren't many of them, neither.
The End
Steve K.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:33
Hebrew to English
| Only if you think computers will understand language in my lifetime... | May 29, 2013 |
Steve Kerry wrote:
Once upon a time, when I were a lad, there were some chaps called weavers, who got very cross when someone invented a mechanical weaving machine. They said it wasn't natural, and couldn't do the same as what a real craftsman weaver could do. They hopped up and down a bit, broke a few machines and then died of starvation. There aren't many weavers now. Except the ones working the machines, and there aren't many of them, neither.
The End
Steve K.
I'm not a Luddite, I'm just not convinced that's going to happen [in my working lifetime]. Even if it does, there are people who pay good money for authentic quality hand-woven goods, instead of the mass-produced alternative.
| | |
|
|
|
Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:33
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| the translation tool landscape hasn't changed that much | May 29, 2013 |
Michelle Kusuda wrote:
That is the reason why there are less and less translation programs available. At the end of the day if a translator cannot earn a decent salary it makes sense to get a different degree!
The reduction in the number of translation software systems on the market today is not quite true. A short walk down memory lane shows a history of mergers and acquisitions whereby translation tools and services simply change hands, but the overall landscape remains stable.
Just a few examples:
SDL has acquired (over past 15 years)
- Transparent Transcend MT system and AutoTrans software
- Idiom Worldserver TMS system
- Trados
- Passolo visual localization software
- Language Weaver statistical MT system
- Tridion Content Management System (CMS)
- its own SDLX software has changed and evolved into the newer generations of its current offer
- the Transparent Transcend and Autotrans have been (partially) obsoleted by the more recent MT acquisitions
Translations.com has acquired since 2000:
- GlobaLink TMS system
- Wordfast enterprise level offer
- Alchemy Catalyst visual localization and TM system
- WorldLingo MT system
- and many small single language service providers
Many other TM systems are still on the market 10-15 years later:
- Atril DV
- Wordfast desktop versions
- STAR Transit
Many other newer ones have started and expand in different strides:
- MemoQ
- Similis (sold by founder to another owner during past few years)
Most MT companies are still around:
- SYSTRAN
- AsiaOnline
- PROMT
- Reverso, although it is no longer the same underlying MT engine. It switched to a different one around 2005
- lots of MT service providers have created custom statisical MT systems based on opensource MT software
So, what really disappeared?
- Yes, the IBM TM/2 tool of the 80s and early 90s is extremely difficult tto rack down today
- Logos MT system: well, not quite since it turned into an opensource product
- Globalink Power Translator MT system: but again not really, as the licensing seems to have been transferred over to another MT tool provider (Avanquest)
- Only a small handful of small start-ups, which never went very far with their TM or MT tool offers
This is no different than other industries (Telecommunications, automobile, other enterprise software fields, online search portals, even guitar manufacturers, etc)
Jeff
[Edited at 2013-05-29 20:51 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:33
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| another analogy about machines | May 29, 2013 |
Steve Kerry wrote:
Once upon a time, when I were a lad, there were some chaps called weavers, who got very cross when someone invented a mechanical weaving machine. They said it wasn't natural, and couldn't do the same as what a real craftsman weaver could do. They hopped up and down a bit, broke a few machines and then died of starvation. There aren't many weavers now. Except the ones working the machines, and there aren't many of them, neither.
The End
Steve K.
Ty Kendall wrote: I'm not a Luddite, I'm just not convinced that's going to happen [in my working lifetime]. Even if it does, there are people who pay good money for authentic quality hand-woven goods, instead of the mass-produced alternative.
This is really no different than the guitar manufacturing industry. There are the purists who believe that one should never touch a guitar that has been hand-made without any mechanical tools.
Well, the reality of the worldwide sales of guitars (electric and acoustic) is that:
- 66% (2/3) of guitars are sold under 500 $USD
- 30% (nearly 1/3) of guitars are sold between 500-1000 $USD
- only 3-4% of guitars are sold for over 1000 $USD
I have 2+ guitars in each category which all fulfill different purposes and correspond to different needs.
Sometimes a 1000+ $ guitar is overkill and inappropriate for a given context.
If you read the marketing and sales info of the MT publishers, and a new book that is expected to come out about the translation industry this year, much focuses on the specific purpose of a translation job, and whether or not MT corresponds to the need and fulfills the purpose.
Mass translation of thousands to millions of customer support FAQs or internal employee training documention or company internal intranet news in an extremely short period of time is possible with MT and would not even be attempted by non-tool aided translation due to budget allowance on such content.
There are a number of factors which determine MT appropriateness (shelf-life and perishability of the content, intrinsic value of the content to the buyer, speed of translation based on very high volume needs, etc).
Sometimes high-quality double-checked full-human translation is inappropriate for specific needs and the amount of budget which can be allocated to fill the need.
Jeff
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 10:33
Italian to English
In memoriam | Where do we go from here? | May 30, 2013 |
Jeff Allen wrote:
Mass translation of thousands to millions of customer support FAQs or internal employee training documention or company internal intranet news in an extremely short period of time is possible with MT and would not even be attempted by non-tool aided translation due to budget allowance on such content.
There are a number of factors which determine MT appropriateness (shelf-life and perishability of the content, intrinsic value of the content to the buyer, speed of translation based on very high volume needs, etc).
Sometimes high-quality double-checked full-human translation is inappropriate for specific needs and the amount of budget which can be allocated to fill the need.
Jeff
This is precisely what MT offered a couple of decades ago when I first got interested in CATs/TenTs/MT or whatever you want to call them. I imagine today's MT programs do the job a bit better but it's still way short of what I would pay cash for, Today's CAT tools, however, give me real-time access to legacy work, glossaries and so one and most of them also give me a GUI that is every bit as user-friendly as Word, whicb is great.
In an ideal world, MT would intelligently leverage my legacy translations and apply them to new texts. Presumably, this would require an MT program that would pass some sort of user-modulated Turing test, a procedure that none of the MT programs currently in circulation seem even to contemplate.
The good news is that gifted human translators will still have a market for the foreseeable futures but MT, on the other hand, will continue to illude outsourcers and optimistic neophytes that MT pretranslation plus revision is some sort of shortcut to a half-decent translation of non-MT appropriate texts.
G.
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:33
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| no need to pass a Turing test, DVX2 already does it | May 30, 2013 |
Don't quote me on this, but as far as I know (from my limited experience with the program) Atril's DVX2 (Déjà Vu) has managed to integrate machine translation into a CAT tool. DVX has had something called 'assemble' for quite some time that is based on EBMT*. I think its new 'Deep Miner' might also be based on some kind of MT stuff.
As to whether it is any good, however, I can't say because I myself use a different flavour of MT in a different CAT tool: Google Translate + Microso... See more Don't quote me on this, but as far as I know (from my limited experience with the program) Atril's DVX2 (Déjà Vu) has managed to integrate machine translation into a CAT tool. DVX has had something called 'assemble' for quite some time that is based on EBMT*. I think its new 'Deep Miner' might also be based on some kind of MT stuff.
As to whether it is any good, however, I can't say because I myself use a different flavour of MT in a different CAT tool: Google Translate + Microsoft Translator inside memoQ via a plugin. I obviously don't use them to translate for me, but just have them there as one more arrow in my quiver. As I translate, I have Google/Microsoft's MT output in little boxes to my right, under which I have hits from my own TMs, and under that hits from my many glossaries. I also have IntelliWebSearch set up to automatically search 25 terminology websites if I select any word or phrase and click Alt+I.
MT is basically just one more of our large range of tools and can be put to good use if ... put to good use. I'd say let them advertise anything they want. It doesn't bother me. When and if the tide changes, I will be ready for it.
Michael
'*EBMT: EBMT (Example-Based Machine Translation) is a relatively new technology which aims to combine both TM and MT paradigms by reusing previous translations and applying various degrees of linguistic knowledge to convert fuzzy matches into exact ones. However, some early definitions of EBMT refer to what is now known as TM, and often exclude the concept of fuzzy matches.' (http://dvx.atril.com/technology/glossary.asp?InFrame=true ) ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:33
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| very good point Jeff! | May 30, 2013 |
Jeff Allen wrote:
Mass translation of thousands to millions of customer support FAQs or internal employee training documention or company internal intranet news in an extremely short period of time is possible with MT and would not even be attempted by non-tool aided translation due to budget allowance on such content.
There are a number of factors which determine MT appropriateness (shelf-life and perishability of the content, intrinsic value of the content to the buyer, speed of translation based on very high volume needs, etc).
Sometimes high-quality double-checked full-human translation is inappropriate for specific needs and the amount of budget which can be allocated to fill the need.
Jeff
I totally agree. I think people are mixing things up here. MT is just a tool that can be useful in certain scenarios. It won't harm the truly good translators who know what they are doing. And it can definitely help where extremely large volumes of corporate bumph need to be processed quickly and cheaply. It would be insane to ask a good translator to translate millions of pages of stuff that will be thrown away the very next day anyway, for €0.10/word. That sort of material can only really be handled by some sort of MT + a post-editing workflow of some kind.
Michael
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 10:33
Italian to English
In memoriam | The Spirit of Turing | May 31, 2013 |
Hi Michael,
I'm not convinced that machine translation comes anywhere near simulating the behaviour of intelligent translators!
There's plenty of stuff out there - most of it seems to be on your computer! - to help us with lexical problems but there's more to translation than vocabulary.
FWIW
G.
Michael Beijer wrote: Don't quote me on this, but as far as I know (from my limited experience with the program) Atril's DVX2 (Déjà Vu) has managed to integrate machine translation into a CAT tool. DVX has had something called 'assemble' for quite some time that is based on EBMT*. I think its new 'Deep Miner' might also be based on some kind of MT stuff. As to whether it is any good, however, I can't say because I myself use a different flavour of MT in a different CAT tool: Google Translate + Microsoft Translator inside memoQ via a plugin. I obviously don't use them to translate for me, but just have them there as one more arrow in my quiver. As I translate, I have Google/Microsoft's MT output in little boxes to my right, under which I have hits from my own TMs, and under that hits from my many glossaries. I also have IntelliWebSearch set up to automatically search 25 terminology websites if I select any word or phrase and click Alt+I. MT is basically just one more of our large range of tools and can be put to good use if ... put to good use. I'd say let them advertise anything they want. It doesn't bother me. When and if the tide changes, I will be ready for it. Michael '*EBMT: EBMT (Example-Based Machine Translation) is a relatively new technology which aims to combine both TM and MT paradigms by reusing previous translations and applying various degrees of linguistic knowledge to convert fuzzy matches into exact ones. However, some early definitions of EBMT refer to what is now known as TM, and often exclude the concept of fuzzy matches.' ( http://dvx.atril.com/technology/glossary.asp?InFrame=true )
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:33
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| Yes, Assemble has been in DV for over 10 years | May 31, 2013 |
Michael Beijer wrote: Don't quote me on this, but as far as I know (from my limited experience with the program) Atril's DVX2 (Déjà Vu) has managed to integrate machine translation into a CAT tool. DVX has had something called 'assemble' for quite some time that is based on EBMT*. I think its new 'Deep Miner' might also be based on some kind of MT stuff. ... '*EBMT: EBMT (Example-Based Machine Translation) is a relatively new technology which aims to combine both TM and MT paradigms by reusing previous translations and applying various degrees of linguistic knowledge to convert fuzzy matches into exact ones. However, some early definitions of EBMT refer to what is now known as TM, and often exclude the concept of fuzzy matches.' ( http://dvx.atril.com/technology/glossary.asp?InFrame=true )
Yes, Michael you are correct on this.
Forgot that I had invited Atril to write an article about this back when I was the editor of the ELRA Newsletter.
This feature goes back almost 15 years. I remember discussions with them at my office where they use my statement in an article from 2 years earlier about TM as a new commercialized name and derivative of EBMT. They did so and have continued to use it.
Beyond "fuzzy matching" - The Déjà Vu approach to reusing Languages Resources, Xavier Garcia, Ampersand Traduccio Automatica
In ELRA Newsletter, Vol.4 Nº3, July-September 1999, page 5
Free download of article available at this link:
http://www.elra.info/nl/newsletters/V4N4.pdf
Around the same timeframe, Atril's DV replaced a homegrown TM tool we created at Caterpillar several years earlier (1996). Back at that time, we researched, tested, and compared all existing TM tools, yet none could do exactly what we needed (even with tool customization requirements mtgs with all the vendors). It wasn't until 2000/2001 that Caterpillar finally chose a tool vendor (Atril) to replace its own Caterpillar TM tool. Knowing the needs and requirements of the workflow and integrated tool landscape of those production teams back then, I quickly understood why Atril and their tool were selected.
Jeff
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 10:33
Italian to English
In memoriam
Jeff Allen wrote:
Knowing the needs and requirements of the workflow and integrated tool landscape of those production teams back then, I quickly understood why Atril and their tool were selected.
Jeff
That's the problem, though. What's right for Caterpillar is less useful for individual translators.
I don't use DV any more but AutoAssemble was always the first thing I disabled. This is no criticism of the feature; it's just that my TMs were probably too small to produce decent results.
Studio's AutoSuggest feature, on the other hand, does a similar job and is very helpful because you can generate thematically coherent dictionaries, provided of course that your TMs are reasonably well organised.
| | |
|
|
|
Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 11:33
Hebrew to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Misunderstanding? | May 31, 2013 |
Jeff Allen wrote: Michelle Kusuda wrote:
That is the reason why there are less and less translation programs available. At the end of the day if a translator cannot earn a decent salary it makes sense to get a different degree!
The reduction in the number of translation software systems on the market today is not quite true. A short walk down memory lane shows a history of mergers and acquisitions whereby translation tools and services simply change hands, but the overall landscape remains stable. Jeff
Jeff, I think Michelle was referring to translation programs in school (university, college), not to software programs.
Now, if you (and I) can misunderstand the meaning of what Michelle wrote, imagine what MT will do with it...
Nonetheless, thanks for the information
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:33
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| translation programs | May 31, 2013 |
Lingopro wrote: Jeff, I think Michelle was referring to translation programs in school (university, college), not to software programs. Now, if you (and I) can misunderstand the meaning of what Michelle wrote, imagine what MT will do with it... Nonetheless, thanks for the information
Yes, I think you are correct Lingopro on that. Thanks for the clarification.
Jeff
[Edited at 2013-05-31 16:29 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:33
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| different strokes for different folks | May 31, 2013 |
Jeff Allen wrote:
Knowing the needs and requirements of the workflow and integrated tool landscape of those production teams back then, I quickly understood why Atril and their tool were selected.
Jeff
Giles Watson wrote:
That's the problem, though. What's right for Caterpillar is less useful for individual translators.
I don't use DV any more but AutoAssemble was always the first thing I disabled. This is no criticism of the feature; it's just that my TMs were probably too small to produce decent results.
Studio's AutoSuggest feature, on the other hand, does a similar job and is very helpful because you can generate thematically coherent dictionaries, provided of course that your TMs are reasonably well organised.
Totally agree with you Giles. For the Caterpillar TM tool, we built it in-house in 3 weeks based on experience within our team that had been working several years on authoring and translation tool workflows on-site, with internal-based translators and revisers + a network of outsourced translation agencies. The needs were very specific with regard to cross-tool compatability, and no tool provider at the time could meet the needs. Atril DV was launched afterward and was quite powerful with regard to plug-ins and adapters, and it made sense why this solution was chosen. Yet, it is not necessary the best tool for all types of users.
This is why I have spent quite a bit of time over time explaining to MT vendors the contexts and types of projects in which freelance translators tend to work in. Many, if not most, of the MT providers who make systems (especially the Statistically-based systems) are focusing on entreprise level deployments. There are the desktop software solutions, but most of those sales are for non-translators who just want a software product for ad-hoc translation needs.
The middle-area niche of professional translators is one where the MT providers struggle the most to help provide concrete best practice solutions that fit within the scope of projects and tasks which really reflect how freelancer translators often work (in the variety of ways this is done as well).
Jeff
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Machine Translations: Should Proz.com advertise MT jobs? | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
