| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Machine Translations: Should Proz.com advertise MT jobs? Thread poster: Lingopro
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| | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:46
Hebrew to English
| Modal verb play.... | May 29, 2013 |
Just to answer the main question concisely, they shouldn't but they will.
Proz won't stop advertising MT jobs for the same reason it won't stop advertising jobs "offering" 0.0000001USD per source word.
I happen to disagree with that, but I also know it's not going to change.
| | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 18:46
Hebrew to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Nip it in the bud... | May 29, 2013 |
Michelle Kusuda wrote:
First, CAT tools should benefit the translator not the agencies! Fuzzy matches, rates, etc.. (AKA being ripped-off!) If an agency wants to align the document later on, let them!
I couldn't agree more!
MT editing is now being touted as a new feature and many translators are jumping on the bandwagon without realizing that they are simply selling their services short. Editing someone else's translation can either be a dream or a nightmare. MT editing takes as much brain power if not more to ensure accuracy.
Unfortunately, I cannot stop translators who wish to edit MT text from doing so, but I can ask them to consider the rate they are working for.
As many here said - it is harder and more time consuming to edit MT and they should charge accordingly - not half the rate (as agencies wish we would) but double or triple the rate so that a) they will get the right money for their time and b) maybe it will help push to the edges this ridiculous need to replace us with machines.
Can someone enlighten me about what benefits can a professional translator derive from editing MTs?
I cannot - I don't see any benefit whatsoever to me as a translator, but I can see why agencies seem to think it's a good idea...
| | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 18:46
Hebrew to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Rebel with a cause | May 29, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Just to answer the main question concisely, they shouldn't but they will.
Proz won't stop advertising MT jobs for the same reason it won't stop advertising jobs "offering" 0.0000001USD per source word.
I happen to disagree with that, but I also know it's not going to change.
If you disagree and I disagree and 50% of Proz.com members will disagree, we have a chance to bring about change. Don't give up so easily!
I am trying to get a proz staff member to respond here... still waiting...
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| Job postings which may be of interest to language professionals are allowed | May 29, 2013 |
Hi all,
Just a couple of notes:
The ProZ.com policy regarding job postings allows posts which may be of interest to language professionals. This would include post-editing work. I agree that post-editing projects should be clearly labeled as such, to avoid confusion.
Some translators do offer post-editing services, and some have trained to post-edit. Some information on this was covered in last year's State of the industry report for freelance translators:<... See more Hi all,
Just a couple of notes:
The ProZ.com policy regarding job postings allows posts which may be of interest to language professionals. This would include post-editing work. I agree that post-editing projects should be clearly labeled as such, to avoid confusion.
Some translators do offer post-editing services, and some have trained to post-edit. Some information on this was covered in last year's State of the industry report for freelance translators:
Of translators surveyed, 26.7% report that their clients have incorporated the use of MT in some way. This is up from 16% in 2011. Also up is the number of translators who have done post-editing work, or who offer it as a service: 40% compared to 30% in 2011. Most who report doing post-editing work say they do not find it faster or easier than regular translation work. Some allowance may be needed here for factors such as the language and direction of the translation, though it should be pointed out that the translators who have reported some level of success in post-editing work or have found it more efficient for some types of material also state that a good amount of training, practice or preparation went into making those results possible. The majority, however, say that still 10% or less of their work comes from post-editing projects at this time.
http://www.proz.com/industry-report/
The rate involved for this kind of work may be a different matter, and ProZ.com will not set rates for this or any other type of work. Some post-editing, if the provider is well-trained, may be easier or more efficient in some aspects (and maybe not!). If you offer the service, as with any other, make sure you know your rate and charge accordingly for your work. If you do not offer the service, it may be a good idea to know as much as possible about it, in order to be able to better assess your clients if the subject comes up.
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 18:46
Hebrew to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It's certainly a response... | May 29, 2013 |
Jared wrote:
Job postings which may be of interest to language professionals are allowed
Thank you for joining our discussion, Jared.
It may be a service but it's only remotely related to real language used by real people.
I can only speak for my pair - if people began communicating like MT suggest, we will soon be back at pre homo sapiens times.
I think it's a cynical wink at our profession and I wish at least to see Proz.com take a stance and make a rule of the requirement to clearly state that an MT job is an MT job.
Since ultimately, the goal of agencies is to "save" money - or get richer while we work much harder - it is in fact up to us the translators to set ridiculous rates for MT editing work in order to help agencies realize that we are not MT editing monkeys or simply refuse the job with a nice and very polite explanation.
| | | | | Yes, it should | May 29, 2013 |
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation, with a distance that could be equivalent to the distance between translation and interpreting at present.
While I do not think that human translation will shrink a bit because of a globalised world --and for the fact that customers are not stupid and know that they need to have their impo... See more Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation, with a distance that could be equivalent to the distance between translation and interpreting at present.
While I do not think that human translation will shrink a bit because of a globalised world --and for the fact that customers are not stupid and know that they need to have their important stuff translated properly--, the market for MT will grow dramatically since very many companies will use it to translate materials that were too expensive to translate with human translators.
The younger generations will have to accept the idea that 70% of them will be devoted to post-editing, many of them will specialise themselves in this market and will make a profitable living by means of better tools and processes, and universities are bound to offer courses about it.
All in all: yes, I think it is legitimate that MT jobs are advertised in Proz.com. We are mature enough to reject them / not to apply for them if we do not like that kind of work, while we should allow the younger generations to accept them if they wish and learn to invent a way of making it profitable work. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingopro
Israel
Local time: 18:46
Hebrew to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Will I win the lottery??? | May 29, 2013 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation...
The younger generations will have to accept the idea that 70% of them will be devoted to post-editing...
I asked if I'll win the lottery because you seem to know what the future has in store for us...
While you are definitely entitled to your opinion I hardly think you know what will happen 5, 10, 20 or more years down the road and therefore I at least, don't have to accept any such declarations and neither does the younger generation if it's not good for them - but that is for them to decide, not for you and me.
I'm all for innovation and I'm for freedom of choice and I wish to leave the younger generation to make their own path in life without us telling them what they will have to accept or not!
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 21:16
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | I agree with you | May 29, 2013 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation, with a distance that could be equivalent to the distance between translation and interpreting at present.
While looking into the future is difficult, trends can be discerned. Today there is a clear demand for MT. I myself use it. I often get email inquiries in languages I don't know (Chinese, Italian, etc.). To find out what they are saying, I paste them into Google Translate. The result is good enough to let me know what the emails are saying, and this serves my purpose. Similarly, I often use MT to find out what a web site in a different language is saying.
I am sure there are hundreds of thousands of people out there who make similar use of MT.
Language software developers are keenly aware of this need and they are pouring money into MT research. It will yield some results.
A close parallel of earlier times is the adamant refusal of the then Tys that computers can't play chess. Within a very short time computer software for playing chess was developed and to compound human ignominy, it defeated the reigning Chess Grand Master in a straight game.
I myself am routinely and comprehensively defeated by Window 7's chess game, even when I am playing at Level 7. At Level 10 (which corresponds to grandmaster level, I am floored in a couple of moves by the computer.
What I am trying say is that there is nothing intrisincally evil or unethical in MT. It is just a new technology.
Many things that we used to do earlier by hand are now done by machines and we are certainly not less humans because of that. Think of washing clothes, or grinding for flour, or similar household chores.
We will have to adapt to the new technology that is all. And don't forget, humans are one of the most adaptable creatures, at par with cockroaches and rats! And I suppose, we translators being human, are too. So we will survive.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:46
Hebrew to English
| Self-fulfilling prophecy | May 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation, with a distance that could be equivalent to the distance between translation and interpreting at present.
While looking into the future is difficult, trends can be discerned. Today there is a clear demand for MT
Hmmm....just because there's a demand, it doesn't mean we have to supply it. Like I said earlier, turkeys voting for Christmas.... but then I suppose I could be accused of fighting the tide. Too early to tell who's right.
However, I do wonder if the attitude to MT (oh it's coming anyway) isn't, by and large, a self-fulfilling prophecy?
| | | | | I am glad I am not the only one who sees it for what it is! | May 29, 2013 |
Lingopro wrote: Michelle Kusuda wrote:
First, CAT tools should benefit the translator not the agencies! Fuzzy matches, rates, etc.. (AKA being ripped-off!) If an agency wants to align the document later on, let them! I couldn't agree more! MT editing is now being touted as a new feature and many translators are jumping on the bandwagon without realizing that they are simply selling their services short. Editing someone else's translation can either be a dream or a nightmare. MT editing takes as much brain power if not more to ensure accuracy. Unfortunately, I cannot stop translators who wish to edit MT text from doing so, but I can ask them to consider the rate they are working for. As many here said - it is harder and more time consuming to edit MT and they should charge accordingly - not half the rate (as agencies wish we would) but double or triple the rate so that a) they will get the right money for their time and b) maybe it will help push to the edges this ridiculous need to replace us with machines. Can someone enlighten me about what benefits can a professional translator derive from editing MTs? I cannot - I don't see any benefit whatsoever to me as a translator, but I can see why agencies seem to think it's a good idea...
It is refreshing that someone else realizes the current trend for what it is. I suppose the field will be divided into Real Translators, 2nd tier translation editors and MT editing assistants. Similar to Nursing Profession: 4 year RNBS, 2 yr. RNAA and Certificate NA. Can you guess which one ends up doing the menial work and gets paid the least?
| | | | | Love the metaphor of the turkey and Christmas! More like Thanksgiving Holiday! | May 29, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation, with a distance that could be equivalent to the distance between translation and interpreting at present.
While looking into the future is difficult, trends can be discerned. Today there is a clear demand for MT Hmmm....just because there's a demand, it doesn't mean we have to supply it. Like I said earlier, turkeys voting for Christmas.... but then I suppose I could be accused of fighting the tide. Too early to tell who's right. However, I do wonder if the attitude to MT (oh it's coming anyway) isn't, by and large, a self-fulfilling prophecy?
That is the reason why there are less and less translation programs available. At the end of the day if a translator cannot earn a decent salary it makes sense to get a different degree!
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| Not our business... for now | May 29, 2013 |
Michelle Kusuda wrote:
That is the reason why there are less and less translation programs available. At the end of the day if a translator cannot earn a decent salary it makes sense to get a different degree!
I hope my colleagues in this forum do not take me wrong: I personally dislike MT as much as the next person and do not do that type of work, but I have to accept that there are very serious translation agencies and companies investing a lot of time and money in research in this field, and they will do all they can to go along with their end customers and to find --or develop if need be-- the resources they need.
What I am trying to explain is that, while MT post-editing might not be our taste, and not even a market for our generation of translators, the next wave of new translators will find a way of making decent money out of it, by means of tools, processes, and training that still do not exist.
Even today, some CAT tools already have ways of measuring the effort spent in editing a text (they call it "editing distance", I think), and tools will certainly evolve to an extent that will make MT translation if not interesting work, at least profitable work.
(I now put my crystal ball back in the box, thank you!)
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Lingopro wrote: Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Like it or not, MT is here to stay, and with time (I estimate it in 10 years or so), the market will be clearly split between two activities and specialisations: post-editing and human translation...
The younger generations will have to accept the idea that 70% of them will be devoted to post-editing... Will I win the lottery???
Only if you buy a ticket!
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 17:46
Italian to English
In memoriam
Ty Kendall wrote:
Hmmm....just because there's a demand, it doesn't mean we have to supply it. Like I said earlier, turkeys voting for Christmas....
Then market yourself as a swan, Ty.
By and large, MT is the turkey 
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