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Translation of a novel by a non-native speaker - an impossible task?
Thread poster: Rico Romano
Geraldine Oudin
Geraldine Oudin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Japanese to French
+ ...
Turn it down Nov 3, 2009

Recently one of my regular clients contacted me with a very interesting project: He wanted me to make the subtitles of 5 Japanese movies. I was thrilled.

And then I had a look at the PO and realized he wanted English subtitles, not French (I usually work JP>FR for this client). At first I thought it was a mistake, but it wasn't. The client was sure I could do it, just because I live in Australia! I had to explain to him that it wouldn't be ethical for me to accept any job into Engl
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Recently one of my regular clients contacted me with a very interesting project: He wanted me to make the subtitles of 5 Japanese movies. I was thrilled.

And then I had a look at the PO and realized he wanted English subtitles, not French (I usually work JP>FR for this client). At first I thought it was a mistake, but it wasn't. The client was sure I could do it, just because I live in Australia! I had to explain to him that it wouldn't be ethical for me to accept any job into English, as English is (obviously) not my native language. He even offered me more money, but I refused and gave him the contact information of a good JP>EN translator.

Literary translations in particular require a "feel" for the language. You need to be able to feel not only what sounds natural, but what sounds beautiful. Most people don't even have the feel of their own native language. I am pretty confident I can write beautifully in French. I am also able to recognize a beautiful text in English when I read it, and I do love English literature. But let's face it : I can't write well enough to translate a novel into English, and won't even try.

If you were offered to translate a novel into English, which is not your native language, refuse. Be honnest with yourself. Your English may be good, but you will never be a native speaker. Better turn it down than accept (and give up your professional credibility).

*****
http://geraldineoudin.com
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Lingua 5B
Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 03:09
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Native speaker + good writer + literary erudite Nov 3, 2009

I'd definitely assign such a job to a native speaker, but not any native speaker. The person must be literary educated, then know the nuances of the source text, author's biography and the entire background of the novel's creation. That's only the starting point.

I agree that proficient non-native speakers can give some brilliant ideas and ways of expressing emotions and thoughts, but I couldn't trust them to provide a perfect overall flow of the text. Or they may do it, but would a
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I'd definitely assign such a job to a native speaker, but not any native speaker. The person must be literary educated, then know the nuances of the source text, author's biography and the entire background of the novel's creation. That's only the starting point.

I agree that proficient non-native speakers can give some brilliant ideas and ways of expressing emotions and thoughts, but I couldn't trust them to provide a perfect overall flow of the text. Or they may do it, but would always have to have a crutch- an editor, which makes the process much more complicated and slower, plus the translator will mix their own style with that of an editor, and I don't like that. That's the reason why I don't like translations done by a team of two or more people, either. There's always something unnatural about such texts.

[Edited at 2009-11-03 08:53 GMT]
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Paul Adie (X)
Paul Adie (X)  Identity Verified
Germany
Spanish to English
+ ...
Just another opinion. Nov 3, 2009

I know one native Lithuanian/Russian speaker who has lived around 40 years in the UK. Her knowledge of English and extensive vocabulary is, quite frankly, better than mine. I know she would be more than adequate to translate Lithuanian/Russian literature into English.

Once she asked me to proofread a document for her that was originally in Lithuanian (a newspaper article) and had a few questions. Her writing had such confidence and power that nothing needed to be changed.
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I know one native Lithuanian/Russian speaker who has lived around 40 years in the UK. Her knowledge of English and extensive vocabulary is, quite frankly, better than mine. I know she would be more than adequate to translate Lithuanian/Russian literature into English.

Once she asked me to proofread a document for her that was originally in Lithuanian (a newspaper article) and had a few questions. Her writing had such confidence and power that nothing needed to be changed.

She wanted another word for people who were 'beautiful' in English, i.e. a stunner. I gave her a few options, but in the end she went with her gut and came up with 'dazzlers', which was a superb choice and it fitted with the context. I hadn't suggested 'dazzlers'.

Yes, in general I would say that literature needs to be written by 'natives', but there are some non-natives who have reached such a good level in their acquired language that their written work can pass for fluent, native text. This is very much an exception rather than the rule.

Happy translating!

Paul

Edited to add:

Just to comment on the team working concept: whenever I work with a native speaker of my source language, which I am lucky enough to do on a daily basis, I feel I gain insights into the culture and discover nuances that I wouldn't even have thought about. If I was ever to translate literature, I think a good discussion with a native source language speaker would certainly be part of the process.

[Edited at 2009-11-03 08:56 GMT]
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Angela Dickson (X)
Angela Dickson (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:09
French to English
+ ...
Examples Nov 3, 2009

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

ricromano wrote:

"as if invoking the Madonna of the frustrated"

"Frenetic his activism as he cleared the counter from cups and glasses"


Is this a translation done by A) an "Italian with an average knowledge of English" or B) just another hilarious Google translation?


I think the first example Madeleine quotes is a lovely sentence, and makes more-or-less perfect sense. However, in the second example, the use of "activism" is, all thoughts of poetic licence and artistic beauty aside, simply wrong, and confusing for an anglophone reader *who doesn't understand Italian*.

This is probably the most difficult thing to achieve in translation - to step back from the source text and produce something that sounds authentic to (possibly monolingual) speakers of the target language. A translator may wish to retain an Italian flavour in the translation, but must have the skills to know what is flavouring and what is confusion.


 
Rico Romano
Rico Romano
Italy
Local time: 03:09
TOPIC STARTER
An unanimous verdict Nov 3, 2009

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

ricromano wrote:

"as if invoking the Madonna of the frustrated"

"Frenetic his activism as he cleared the counter from cups and glasses"


Is this a translation done by A) an "Italian with an average knowledge of English" or B) just another hilarious Google translation?

My vote goes to B. Or both.

Ricromano - is this, by any chance, and I'm not saying it is, you trying to establish whether or not your English is good enough for translating an Italian novel into English? If so, my answer would have to be no.

Although my knowledge of Italian is probably more than "average", I have as yet come to the point where I offer it as a source language, let alone a target. And I mainly work with straight forward business documents rather than literature.


Many thanks for a reply that answers the question wether an intermediate knowledge of English permits the translation of a italian novel. The verdict has been unanimous with the exception of the encouraging post of Angela Dickson, who made me see a solution alas out of my reach. Brilliant the post from Tomás Cano Binder who performed an authentic vivisection on the concept of literary translation, giving a clear and vivid view of it.

By all chances, I was trying indeed to check on my translation coefficient. Having written a novel whose specific target is the maybe thirty millions Italian-Americans, I was tryng to establish wether the English of the posted sample was understandable enough to let hope that a U.S. publisher would review the full text as any other.

Rico Romano



[Edited at 2009-11-03 11:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-11-03 12:30 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-11-03 15:12 GMT]


 
Rico Romano
Rico Romano
Italy
Local time: 03:09
TOPIC STARTER
Lone adjective Nov 3, 2009

[quote]Angela Dickson wrote:

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

ricromano wrote:

"as if invoking the Madonna of the frustrated"

"Frenetic his activism as he cleared the counter from cups and glasses"


However, in the second example, the use of "activism" is, all thoughts of poetic licence and artistic beauty aside, simply wrong, and confusing for an anglophone reader *who doesn't understand Italian*.


I gather that, at the beginning of sentences, an adjective requires its subject and a verb. Would it be correct than, to write: "he was frenetic in his activism, while clearing the counter from cups and glasses"?

Best
Rico Romano


 
Angela Dickson (X)
Angela Dickson (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:09
French to English
+ ...
no Nov 3, 2009

[quote]Rico Romano wrote:

Angela Dickson wrote:

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

ricromano wrote:

"as if invoking the Madonna of the frustrated"

"Frenetic his activism as he cleared the counter from cups and glasses"


However, in the second example, the use of "activism" is, all thoughts of poetic licence and artistic beauty aside, simply wrong, and confusing for an anglophone reader *who doesn't understand Italian*.


I gather that, at the beginning of sentences, an adjective requires its subject and a verb. Would it be correct than, to write: "he was frenetic in his activism, while clearing the counter from cups and glasses"?

Best
Rico Romano


No, I meant that "activism" is entirely the wrong noun to use here. It is not a general way of describing someone who is active.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:09
Member (2008)
Italian to English
the short answer is "no". Nov 3, 2009

Rico Romano wrote:

Given an Italian with an average knowledge of English, is it possible an impeccable translation of a 360 pages novel?


There are already several mistakes in your first sentence, so with all due respect, I would say "no".



 
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:09
Swedish to English
+ ...
Your right Angela Nov 3, 2009

Angela Dickson wrote:

Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:

ricromano wrote:

"as if invoking the Madonna of the frustrated"





I think the first example Madeleine quotes is a lovely sentence, and makes more-or-less perfect sense.


The first example was probably a reaction against being able to "read" the original Italian in my head. As a phrase that aims to carry the cultural setting across it's not bad at all.


 
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:09
Swedish to English
+ ...
Author rather than translator Nov 3, 2009

Rico Romano wrote:

By all chances, I was trying indeed to check on my translation coefficient. Having written a novel whose specific target is the maybe thirty millions Italian-Americans, I was tryng to establish wether the English of the posted sample was understandable enough to let hope that a U.S. publisher would review the full text as any other.

Rico Romano


That's a totally different proposition. As a translation, your sample "sucks" (sorry, no offense intended), but as an original piece of writing I can see possibilities.

In your shoes, I'd hire a professional IT-EN translator to do some serious revision of one or two chapter/s (making sure the translator has good Italian and, preferably, Italian-American cultural knowledge). I would then forward the sample translation together with the full novel when approaching publishing houses in the US.

Just remember that most unsolicited novels end up in editors waste bins, so make sure you can afford to lose the money you pay the translator.


 
Nicholas Stedman
Nicholas Stedman  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 03:09
French to English
There are of course a few exceptions Nov 4, 2009

such as novelists who have managed to write in a non-native language (equivalent to translating a novel into a non-native language) such as Milan Kundera, Czech born who now writes (brilliantly) in French. He also revises all the French translations of his books written in Czech.
So Rico, perhaps if you spent a few years in America you might be able rewrite your novel for American Italians in American. Perhaps any remaining idiosyncracies in your English would then be considered to be part
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such as novelists who have managed to write in a non-native language (equivalent to translating a novel into a non-native language) such as Milan Kundera, Czech born who now writes (brilliantly) in French. He also revises all the French translations of his books written in Czech.
So Rico, perhaps if you spent a few years in America you might be able rewrite your novel for American Italians in American. Perhaps any remaining idiosyncracies in your English would then be considered to be part of your style.
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Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:09
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
The Feel for what it's about. Nov 25, 2009

Geraldine Oudin wrote:


Literary translations in particular require a "feel" for the language. You need to be able to feel not only what sounds natural, but what sounds beautiful. Most people don't even have the feel of their own native language.

*****
http://geraldineoudin.com


Translations in any field usually deal with basically fixed terminologies which leave very little room for "creativity" due to the nature of their context.

On the contrary, literary translations, even more so poetry, often depend not only on an excellent knowledge of both the source and the target languages, but also on the translator's ability to "read between the lines" which are often filled with subtle, not easily detectible subtext.

For example, I'm in the process of translating my own novels from English into German - German is my mother tongue - and have, at times, found it to be quite difficult to come up with a smooth translation.

With this said, it is not necessarily an impossible task for a non-native speaker to translate a novel, but it is very difficult to "hit the right tone" in order to convey the actual message of the story and to simultaneously make it an easy, naturally flowing read.

Regards.


 
Grayson Morr (X)
Grayson Morr (X)  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 03:09
Dutch to English
Writing in your second language is much easier than translating into it Nov 25, 2009

I write much, much better Dutch than I produce translating into it from English. If I need a text in both languages, I write it in Dutch and translate it into English. I learned this the hard way, after getting feedback on my earliest website text, which I'd written in lovely English and translated into stilted, jerky Dutch. The native Dutch members of the mailing list where I asked for feedback were perplexed by such terrible Dutch on the website, when the Dutch I wrote on the list was more tha... See more
I write much, much better Dutch than I produce translating into it from English. If I need a text in both languages, I write it in Dutch and translate it into English. I learned this the hard way, after getting feedback on my earliest website text, which I'd written in lovely English and translated into stilted, jerky Dutch. The native Dutch members of the mailing list where I asked for feedback were perplexed by such terrible Dutch on the website, when the Dutch I wrote on the list was more than adequate.

Based on this, I think it's much more likely for a gifted writer to be able to write beautifully in a second language than for him to be able to translate beautifully into that language.
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Gheed A.Elhi (X)
Gheed A.Elhi (X)
Palestine
Local time: 04:09
Arabic to English
+ ...
Nothing is impossible! Dec 3, 2009

Dear Rico Romano,

Good day.

I believe that "nothing is impossible" if we worked hard and with great efforts.

It would be too much difficult task for you as a non-native speaker, but it's not impossible.

However, my mother tongue is Arabic, I studied English Literature at the university getting high scores and used to translate and analyze many literary texts.

I know it's too much difficult to understand the native language of oth
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Dear Rico Romano,

Good day.

I believe that "nothing is impossible" if we worked hard and with great efforts.

It would be too much difficult task for you as a non-native speaker, but it's not impossible.

However, my mother tongue is Arabic, I studied English Literature at the university getting high scores and used to translate and analyze many literary texts.

I know it's too much difficult to understand the native language of other nation differs to yours specially because it's regarding literature and uses a very special figurative language, But never ever say " It's impossible" even if you fail once, twice and ten times.

I' advising you to give it a try

Have the best luck
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Aleksandar Gasic
Aleksandar Gasic
Montenegro
Local time: 03:09
English to Serbo-Croat
+ ...
not impossible Jan 8, 2010

NR_Stedman wrote:

such as novelists who have managed to write in a non-native language (equivalent to translating a novel into a non-native language) such as Milan Kundera, Czech born who now writes (brilliantly) in French. He also revises all the French translations of his books written in Czech.


What about Joseph Conrad?

Basically, a non-native speaker COULD translate a novel, and it is not fair to generalize and shout "no, don't even try".
A question should perhaps be "can I, as a non-native speaker, translate this novel", or "are MY skills sufficient".
This is almost as if someone asked "can a native speaker WRITE a novel". What would you say? "Yes, certainly, it is your native language"?

The excerpt given here might be shaky, but that does not mean that NOT A SINGLE ONE non-native speaker should EVER even dare to try performing such blasphemy.


 
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Translation of a novel by a non-native speaker - an impossible task?







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