| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Does true bilingualism exist? Thread poster: David Hollywood
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is there true bilingualism?
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is there true bilingualism?
I doubt that true biligualism exists as there is always a predominant language ... I have lived in 6 different countries and have been a teacher of languagues for many years and have never come across anyone who is totally conversant with 1 or more languages perfectly .... there will always be a bias ... a penchant for the mother tongue .... I have met (very) few people who are in a position to really feel more than 1 language equally (and I still doubt t... See more is there true bilingualism?
I doubt that true biligualism exists as there is always a predominant language ... I have lived in 6 different countries and have been a teacher of languagues for many years and have never come across anyone who is totally conversant with 1 or more languages perfectly .... there will always be a bias ... a penchant for the mother tongue .... I have met (very) few people who are in a position to really feel more than 1 language equally (and I still doubt that) and would like to hear from anybody who thinks they can do it totally ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henry Hinds 
United States
Local time: 12:09
English to Spanish
+ ...
In memoriam
Well, you said you'd bring it up, so here I am. I hope many others follow.
True balanced bilingualism does exist, but it is not something that comes naturally. It must be carefully and continuously cultivated by the individual with the purpose of remaining equally conversant in both languages in all areas, subjects and situations. It involves life-long learning and practice. Probably few people ever get to that point, and many have a long way to go even in their "native" language. ... See more Well, you said you'd bring it up, so here I am. I hope many others follow.
True balanced bilingualism does exist, but it is not something that comes naturally. It must be carefully and continuously cultivated by the individual with the purpose of remaining equally conversant in both languages in all areas, subjects and situations. It involves life-long learning and practice. Probably few people ever get to that point, and many have a long way to go even in their "native" language. However, I suppose an equally deficient command of two languages can also be termed "true bilingualism" to the extent it is balanced, but certainly not for our puposes where a very high level of knowledge is required.
Let's hear some more comments! ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 14:09
Spanish to English
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| bilingualism? | Jul 14, 2010 |
David Hollywood wrote:
is there true bilingualism?
Having been 'accused' on numerous occasions of being not 'bilingual' but 'trilingual' (something which I hotly deny...) I'm wondering, David, how you define 'bilingualism'.
MediaMatrix
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John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 14:09
Member (2008)
French to English
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| "Mother" tongue | Jul 14, 2010 |
One of our language teachers was raised with an English father and a French mother. She states that she is French "mother" tongue only because her mother was French...
I don't know that she is discernibly different in either French or English - she herself isn't able to say that she feels more at ease in one or the other. This is not an uncommon experience in this part of Quebec. It must happen in other parts of the world where linguistic communities overlap.
[Edited at 20... See more One of our language teachers was raised with an English father and a French mother. She states that she is French "mother" tongue only because her mother was French...
I don't know that she is discernibly different in either French or English - she herself isn't able to say that she feels more at ease in one or the other. This is not an uncommon experience in this part of Quebec. It must happen in other parts of the world where linguistic communities overlap.
[Edited at 2010-07-14 03:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-07-14 10:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I'm beginning to think that bilingualism in a form exists but I still believe that at least 1 of the languages dominates regardless of confidence and fluency ... what do you dream in for example?
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 11:09
English to German
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In memoriam
David Hollywood wrote:
I'm beginning to think that bilingualism in a form exists but I still believe that at least 1 of the languages dominates regardless of confidence and fluency ... what do you dream in for example?
Bilingualism does exist but it depends on the degree of virtuosity that you expect a person to have.
I am just afraid that this excellent and highly interesting topic will end up as the umpteenth discussion about native speakers.
I can only state that in 13 years no one has spoken a German word to me, except on the phone or in emails or forums.
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 14:09
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
To listen to two truly bilingual people talking to each other, they switch from one language to the other mid-sentence, even just for a word or two if the concept being expressed is easier said in one language or the other. I suspect it may be more related to the environment - if most people around are one language or the other, for example, then they'll favour the language of those around them.
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milinad
Local time: 23:39
German to English
In India many persons can be considered to be equally conversant with at least two languages. Mother tongue and HIndi (although for political reason some might deny they know Hindi). Some many also know a third language i.e. English
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A bit off topic probably but it is an interesting story.
In ex-Yugoslavia official language was Serbo-Croat for many decades. Than in the '60s i believe Slovenian was recognized as second official language but there was a trick. If you spoke only Slovenian, you were considered as half-literate. Mentioned termin was present in all your documents and records.
You were using official language but you were half-leterate. Many people joked about it. ... See more A bit off topic probably but it is an interesting story.
In ex-Yugoslavia official language was Serbo-Croat for many decades. Than in the '60s i believe Slovenian was recognized as second official language but there was a trick. If you spoke only Slovenian, you were considered as half-literate. Mentioned termin was present in all your documents and records.
You were using official language but you were half-leterate. Many people joked about it.
[Edited at 2010-07-14 06:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:09
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Long post... Apologies. | Jul 14, 2010 |
John Fossey wrote:
To listen to two truly bilingual people talking to each other, they switch from one language to the other mid-sentence, even just for a word or two if the concept being expressed is easier said in one language or the other. I suspect it may be more related to the environment - if most people around are one language or the other, for example, then they'll favour the language of those around them.
I can only speak for myself. I was raised by a Portuguese family in Brazil and learnt how to read and write in a bilingual system. I never formally studied language ever since, but never had trouble reading and hearing both English and Portuguese. I must have been a very odd child, because my main hobbie was looking at dictionaries, writing and translating music lyrics.
Lots of things happened and I ended up living in the UK where I met my husband and have been living in a british family environment back and forth. All of my jobs have involved speaking English all day long.
So, for the past 15 years I've been speaking English more than I do Portuguese, which I consider to be my native language. I do not consider myself to be bilingual though.
When in Britain, most people do not believe I did not grow up there. Recently, I've been buying lots of books in Portuguese because I felt I was kind of "forgetting" my native language: had problems saying certain things, they seemed to be easier in English. I often feel the need to try and talk to people just to practice my native language.
A few years ago I decided to teach my husband Portuguese, and now we speak a hybrid of Portuguese/English to each other that seems to irritate people, but we can't help it, it makes perfect sense to us at this point. In my notebooks, sentences are a mix of both languages, same thing happens in my dreams.
Not to mention the embarassment when I end up speaking Portuguese to an English person, or speak English to my mother. I only notice I am doing it when I see that weird look on someone's face.
However, I know I have a native language. But I do know someone who doesn't.
I worked with this girl, she was Brazilian but she went to the US when she was 3. Her parents did not speak any English, so she only spoke Portuguese at home. But she grew up and studied and lived her life speaking English in the US. She speaks both languages perfectly, but unfortunately her writing skills are very, very poor in both languages. I don't know why. I guess some would say her native language is English, but I think she can be what we call bilingual.
There are also certain places in the world in which most people grow up speaking more than one language.
I think John is right about the environment, and I also think it has something to do with the age another language is introduced. The later in life, the more difficult.
It really isn't like riding a bike, language can be lost. There's an interesting case I read about someone who's been in an accident and forgot her native language. I think there's a film from argentina with a similar plot.
In Brazil, I've seen many kids speak English fluently without ever having any lessons, mostly because of videogames. They start playing them very early and they are usually in English.
Many studies seem to suggest that the ability to be bilingual and learn languages has something to do with different types of intelligence and activity in different areas of the brain. Some people find it very difficult to read, write, or even express themselves, even in their own native language. I personally think it's not just because of the way they were brought up, I imagine they find reading a book as excruciating as I do equations.
[Edited at 2010-07-14 06:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-07-14 06:25 GMT]
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| fake bilingualism | Jul 14, 2010 |
In Republic of Moldova, where I come from, everybody is considered to be a bilingual, since there are 2 dominant languages, Romanian - the official language of Moldova - and Russian, as it was widely spoken during Soviet Union, there are many Russian people in Moldova and half of the business activities depend on Russia(n).
When I was still studying, a Romanian TV Company started operating in Moldova. They understood that they would need Russian shows, so they came at our universit... See more In Republic of Moldova, where I come from, everybody is considered to be a bilingual, since there are 2 dominant languages, Romanian - the official language of Moldova - and Russian, as it was widely spoken during Soviet Union, there are many Russian people in Moldova and half of the business activities depend on Russia(n).
When I was still studying, a Romanian TV Company started operating in Moldova. They understood that they would need Russian shows, so they came at our university to look for people speaking both languages, hence we claim we are bilingual. They also wanted to employ in-house translators for their news, so that the news would be presented in both languages. They wanted to have translators who can translate from both languages into both languages. It was not surprising at all for us to find out that there was nobody to want to take the job, a great opportunity though. Everybody was saying that he/she could translate but only in one direction, having their native language as target language.
I never translate into Russian. I read almost all Russian forum threads on ProZ.com, but I am somehow afraid posting I have read thousands pages of Russian literature, but I don't feel myself in Russian as confident as I feel in Romanian.
I asked my teacher about this phenomenon (a translation theoretician) and she called it "fake bilingualism". Also, this kind of bilingualism creates [unfortunately] interesting linguistic issues. The spoken Romanian in Moldova contains so many Russian modified/adapted words, that Romanians from Romania could hardly understand heavy Moldavian dialect. The Romanian language spoken on Moldavian streets is actually not the Moldavian dialect of Romanian Language. It is a mess. It is something similar probably to the "hybrid of Portuguese/English", mentioned by Paula. It is only happening to almost 4 mln people, i.e. 2mln times more people
So talking about bilingual environments (not people), there will be always a strong connection between languages spoken on the same territory. This is absolutely normal. I am not sure though if such situations make the speakers of the 2 languages true or fake bilinguals.
Edited for typos
[Edited at 2010-07-14 07:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 21:09
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Depends on your community | Jul 14, 2010 |
There are hardly any places on earth where two languages are used totally equally. So even if you grow up in both one will be more important in certain circumstances. And the languages will interfere with each other. There are no pure languages, but every language is a product of interference from different directions.
So a person who grows up in a Swedish speaking family in Finland will in most cases speak perfect Finnish, but for Finnish speakers it sounds too perfect, too literal. And ... See more There are hardly any places on earth where two languages are used totally equally. So even if you grow up in both one will be more important in certain circumstances. And the languages will interfere with each other. There are no pure languages, but every language is a product of interference from different directions.
So a person who grows up in a Swedish speaking family in Finland will in most cases speak perfect Finnish, but for Finnish speakers it sounds too perfect, too literal. And vice versa. And in public life they will use Finnish most of the time and Swedish in private life, but will drop Finnish words or phrases in between, because there is no equivalent in Swedish. For instance you cannot swear in Swedish (or English) as well as in Finnish. Swedish is so much more tamed compared to Finnish.
So the question if there is true bilingualism is rather academic, it has no meaning in real life.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:09
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Many degrees | Jul 14, 2010 |
Thank you for the link. The most interesting thing about the article is the idea of different types and degrees of bilingualism. That makes more sense than trying to define "true" bilingualism.
I'll look into metalinguistic awareness, it sounds very interesting.
[Edited at 2010-07-14 07:31 GMT]
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