| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Kudoz - Had enough Thread poster: Natalia Eklund
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| Someone smiled... it's a beautiful day | Oct 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
I loved this Alain. Great stuff. It's probably the best sentence in the lengthy, repetitive (I include my own statements and complaints of course), and probably useless discussions about Kudoz. Your reply was very refreshing because of the lovely depictions.
I am your obedient and humble servant...
| | | | | When do you translate... or.... | Oct 3, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
If I came out on top of a search for a translator with experience in chemistry with something like 50,000 KudoZ points, one might legitimately ask when I find the time to do any translation.
Or, another question... Being a Kudoz leader in your main language pair, how come you have to ask about how to translate "good morning"? A leader with no dictionaries? Or just answering randomly?
| | | | Janet Ratziu 
France
Local time: 11:48
French to English
+ ...
| Innocent mistakes happen too | Oct 3, 2008 |
Funny you should bring this up, NM, but something similar happened to me too last night, but from the other perspective...
I came upon a Kudoz question for which only one answer had been given. It was actually way off the mark but the answerer had loads of references, etc and one had to scroll wwwaaayyyy down the page to get to the end. Naturally I didn't read it all since I knew it wasn't correct and I went ahead and offered my own answer.
Well I got a 'neutral' notic... See more Funny you should bring this up, NM, but something similar happened to me too last night, but from the other perspective...
I came upon a Kudoz question for which only one answer had been given. It was actually way off the mark but the answerer had loads of references, etc and one had to scroll wwwaaayyyy down the page to get to the end. Naturally I didn't read it all since I knew it wasn't correct and I went ahead and offered my own answer.
Well I got a 'neutral' notice from the translator who had offered the first answer, stating that she had added this/'my' answer at the end of her answer box but something like 20 minutes after her first answer, in any case, several minutes before my answer had been submitted.
So yes, she 'won' for being first and that's all well and good since Kudoz points aren't important for me and I just like trying to help and give back when I can.
The problem though is that when someone gives a 'wrong' answer, it still appears in their answer heading like that and so can be very misleading, as in my case. I wonder if then if it isn't better to use the Hide option and then resubmit the new/correct answer? is this a possibility?
It would sure help to clarify a very messy answer that others have to 'dig' through.
Anyway, my point is that innocent mistakes can happen as well.
I don't know if that was your case.....
Anyway, Kudoz is a helpful service despite it's drawbacks. You're right to take a breather now and then though. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anne Bohy
France
Local time: 11:48
English to French
| I understand your point, but... | Oct 3, 2008 |
Stéphanie Soudais wrote:
As a KudoZ asker, I never select an answer with no references/explanation at all (except when questions are about style)[Edited at 2008-10-03 11:55]
I do answer without comments from time to time, with a single dot in the field.
It must be understood as "this is the answer, and you can Google with it if you doubt it is".
There are too many times where I Google and find the answer in seconds, where I think the asker could have done the work him/herself.
I think some askers (and I don't think I am speaking for you, Stephanie) need to understand that we are not here to do the work they should do, including READING all comments AND Googling before deciding what is the best answer.
If askers just consider that we are time-savers, we've lost.
By the way, I put a LOT of comments sometimes, not to justify the translation, but to explain the context, and I am VERY frustated when I see they have not even been read.
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Anne Bohy
France
Local time: 11:48
English to French
| It is possible to hide an incorrect answer and propose another one | Oct 3, 2008 |
Janet Ratziu wrote:
The problem though is that when someone gives a 'wrong' answer, it still appears in their answer heading like that and so can be very misleading, as in my case. I wonder if then if it isn't better to use the Hide option and then resubmit the new/correct answer? is this a possibility?
It would sure help to clarify a very messy answer that others have to 'dig' through.
Once or twice, I hid an answer I had given too quickly, and updated it in another one. Takes a little extra time, but it works.
I also ran in the same problem as you, somebody complaining that I had robbed her second-thought answer, hidden at the end of very lengthy and erroneous citations.
I answered that I just saw the wrong answer and wrong comments, and told her that in my opinion, she should have hidden her answer and proposed a new one - for clarity. Did not hear back.
| | | | Natalia Eklund
France
Local time: 11:48
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Benefit of the doubt | Oct 3, 2008 |
Janet Ratziu wrote:
Anyway, my point is that innocent mistakes can happen as well.
Yes, I know. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt. This is why I was making no accusations. It is interesting to know that it's best to hide an incorrect answer to make a new one. However, in this case the first answer could have been correct given a certain context, so that is why I preferred not to hide it.
Like I said, though, it's not just about this, but the accumulation that I couldn't take any more.
Alain Chouraki wrote:
the guy has been cast away on the lonely shore of What-the-hell-all-this-means Island
I know this island, it's north of the Who-the-hell-wrote-this Isles.
I bow down to the metaphor king!
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
It's probably the best sentence in the lengthy, repetitive (I include my own statements and complaints of course), and probably useless discussions about Kudoz.
 Tomás, you don't like my Gladiator metaphor?!
| | | | Anne Bohy
France
Local time: 11:48
English to French
| context is essential | Oct 3, 2008 |
N.M. Eklund wrote:
However, in this case the first answer could have been correct given a certain context, so that is why I preferred not to hide it.
If a translation, which is wrong in the context of the asker, is kept visible simply because it is appropriate in another context, in many cases it will fool a lot of the raters who, recognizing something they know, will jump on it with an Agree...
This is one of the many ways we get ridiculous answers to some very interesting questions.
My two cents.
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
Stéphanie Soudais wrote: Thomas Michell wrote:
My suggestion is that, once the program is up and running, there should be options within Kudoz to only send/receive questions to/from the 'certified pro' members.
I do not agree, because as you say it yourself, some great answerers are not paying members. Moreover, I for instance will never be a "certified pro" because my profile is not complete (and I don't want to make it complete), which is the first condition to become "certified pro" -but this is another topic.
I agree with Stéphanie. I won't get into details because this is not the forum for it, but many of my trusted colleagues are not even remotely interested in the certification program due to the profile-completeness and full-membership requirements (and some have also pointed out how ambiguous the "no misconduct" item is).
I'd hate to see them excluded from Kudoz and the quality of answers and questions being brought further down.
[Edited at 2008-10-03 22:32]
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Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
Stéphanie Soudais wrote: But this has already been suggested more than once by more than one KudoZ user !! See for instance the link I gave in my first post. When this thread was "active", I (and I guess, other contributors as well) was contacted by ProZ staff to give my opinion on the current system compared with other forums in which I participate (where no points are involved). Since then, nothing...I don't know what was made from my comments, whether they were useful or not (they were probably not).
This has been suggested a gazillion times, with no reply.
The alternative suggestion, which has also been made a gazillion times, is to set a "reliability index" instead of mere points. This has also gone unheard.
Greetings
[Edited at 2008-10-03 22:34]
| | | | | I wonder if the problem can be fixed. And whose fault is it? | Oct 3, 2008 |
In a recent discussion about KudoZ and all its problems, even though many of the causes and some suggestions were pointed out, the site's founder said that:
it appears that quality has not been declining overall, but has been consistent over a three year period. And the number of participants - both askers and answers -- has increased, not decreased.
You say that the site (presumably site staff members) "refuse" to "do anything about 'it'" ("it" being the quality problem that in your opinion exists). Whether one believes that KudoZ quality is diminishing or not, the truth is, there have been numerous improvements made to KudoZ this year. Site developers are working on more. Link
And even though not all the posts were hidden and not all the posters were banned, it's hard to leave room for improvements if the issue is partially censored (although some might think that's alright), and the owner doesn't realize how bad the quality of the glossary really is.
| | | | | A clear reply | Oct 4, 2008 |
Andrea Riffo wrote: Stéphanie Soudais wrote: But this has already been suggested more than once by more than one KudoZ user !! See for instance the link I gave in my first post. When this thread was "active", I (and I guess, other contributors as well) was contacted by ProZ staff to give my opinion on the current system compared with other forums in which I participate (where no points are involved). Since then, nothing...I don't know what was made from my comments, whether they were useful or not (they were probably not). This has been suggested a gazillion times, with no reply.
KudoZ askers are given the option to ask their questions "for points" or "not-for-points". Both options will remain available. There are no plans to delete the points system in KudoZ.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
| I stand corrected, my dears | Oct 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
KudoZ askers are given the option to ask their questions "for points" or "not-for-points". Both options will remain available. There are no plans to delete the points system in KudoZ.
Regards,
Enrique
The "clear reply" has always been that there's no intention to even consider this suggestion (and apparently, not the reliability index either, since it has been making the rounds in the fora for a looong time), no matter how frequently it comes up and regardless of how many good -even excellent- arguments against this system have been given over and over again.
Sorry to rain on your parade, NM, but the subject is not even worth our time anymore, specially since (some) Kudoz posts have been started to misteriously disappear from the homepage.
Greetings
[Edited at 2008-10-04 00:38]
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| Enrique, you don't get the point | Oct 4, 2008 |
Enrique wrote:
KudoZ askers are given the option to ask their questions "for points" or "not-for-points". Both options will remain available.
As I said repeatedly, it is the fact that there are KudoZ points at all, that is the root of the problem. Get rid of them, and most problems with the KudoZ system will disappear, together with all the people that answer only in order to get this "reward".
Letting the asker choose whether a particular question is for point or not, on the other hand, does nothing but complicate the system.
In my opinion it is abundantly clear that ProZ is really interested in quantity over quality, as regards the KudoZ system.
| | | | | Enrique, since you are in a "clear reply" mood... | Oct 4, 2008 |
Could you tell why the alternative suggestion to the "no point" solution, that is, a reliability index, cannot be considered?
A reliability index has been suggested, in various forms, many times over the years, but I never saw an official answer why it would be such a bad thing:
Pros:
1) It would retain a point system, which is apparently a sine qua non for ProZ
2) It would rank answerers not on the basis of an unreliable grand total, but on a ratio of how m... See more Could you tell why the alternative suggestion to the "no point" solution, that is, a reliability index, cannot be considered?
A reliability index has been suggested, in various forms, many times over the years, but I never saw an official answer why it would be such a bad thing:
Pros:
1) It would retain a point system, which is apparently a sine qua non for ProZ
2) It would rank answerers not on the basis of an unreliable grand total, but on a ratio of how many answers are deemed useful as against how many are not.
3) It would not discourage new members from participating in the system, since they would be on a level plane with others who, otherwise, would always remain ahead just because they started earlier.
Cons:?
My preferred solution remains, of course, to get rid of the point system. Since this is not possible, would it be possible to know why such a reliability ratio cannot be considered instead? ▲ Collapse
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Riccardo Schiaffino wrote: Enrique wrote:
KudoZ askers are given the option to ask their questions "for points" or "not-for-points". Both options will remain available.
As I said repeatedly, it is the fact that there are KudoZ points at all, that is the root of the problem. Get rid of them, and most problems with the KudoZ system will disappear, together with all the people that answer only in order to get this "reward". Letting the asker choose whether a particular question is for point or not, on the other hand, does nothing but complicate the system.
Hi Riccardo,
I know your position on this issue.
The alternative of deleting the points system was evaluated by staff and rejected.
The not-for-points alternative was offered for those askers who believe that the awarding of KudoZ points detracts from the KudoZ experience. It is used, even if less frequently than the "for points" version.
Regards,
Enrique
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