| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Is a second degree worth it? Thread poster: katherinehache
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 15:13
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER
A really good translator is bilingual, that is, he is able to work in both directions. That is what translation is all about. You get into the skin of a language and present what you see there into another language, to do which well, you need to get into the skin of that language.
Which essentially means your competence level in both your source and target language have to be equally good.
Unfortunately, very few translators have this level of bilingualism and they get ... See more A really good translator is bilingual, that is, he is able to work in both directions. That is what translation is all about. You get into the skin of a language and present what you see there into another language, to do which well, you need to get into the skin of that language.
Which essentially means your competence level in both your source and target language have to be equally good.
Unfortunately, very few translators have this level of bilingualism and they get into the false track of reasoning that because they don't have it, others too can't (or, to put more uncharitably, shouldn't!).
There is a story in the Panchatantra, where a jackal loses its tail in an accident, and to make this less demeaning to him, schemes to get all fellow jackals also to amputate their tails!
Don't fall into this trap. Go for full bilingualism in both your source and target languages, and a language degree in the other direction will definitely help in this.
[Edited at 2015-05-07 16:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Member (2007)
English
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| Freelance or in-house translators? | May 7, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
A really good translator is bilingual, that is, he is able to work in both directions. That is what translation is all about.
Certainly an in-house translator should be able to work in both directions. Once a company has invested in you, full-time, they need you to do whatever you can for them, even if you can sometimes only do a satisfactory job rather than an excellent one.
But a client who calls on a freelance translator can normally choose the best they can find from around the world, and in the FIGS pairs that gives them tens of thousands (guessing) to choose from. So why would they accept anything other than the best? If you weren't brought up bilingual, how can you hope to do a better translation into your second language than a native speaker who is also a skilled writer and an experienced and talented translator with good comprehension of your own native language?
Yes, you might get some work in the reverse pair from clients who first found you for translating into your native language and then are too lazy to go looking for someone for the opposite pair. But getting a few hours of work doesn't compensate for watering down the message you give to clients, which has got to be that you excel at what you do.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:13
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The best coming in the way of the good | May 7, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
... a client who calls on a freelance translator can normally choose the best they can find from around the world, and in the FIGS pairs that gives them tens of thousands (guessing) to choose from. So why would they accept anything other than the best? If you weren't brought up bilingual, how can you hope to do a better translation into your second language than a native speaker who is also a skilled writer and an experienced and talented translator with good comprehension of your own native language?
Yes, you might get some work in the reverse pair from clients who first found you for translating into your native language and then are too lazy to go looking for someone for the opposite pair. But getting a few hours of work doesn't compensate for watering down the message you give to clients, which has got to be that you excel at what you do.
This is a classic case of the best coming in the way of the good, which very often happens in life, and paralyzes all activity.
In many translation situations, the best is not required at all, good enough is often good enough.
A second argument, which we have gone through ad-nauseum in several other forums, is that a native translator always produces a "best" translation, and a non-native translator never-ever produces a "best" translation.
Clearly there are enough evidence around to refute these claims and I need not go into them here.
I will only point out (again) that most of the people who claim that only natives can translate (or write, or speak) properly in their native language, mostly come from monolingual backgrounds and have no personal experience of multi-lingualism or what it is capable of throwing up (in terms of linguistic abilities).
[Edited at 2015-05-07 14:10 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| As you say, it's all been discussed ad nauseam in general terms | May 7, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
In many translation situations, the best is not required at all, good enough is often good enough.
I don't see that as a valid argument for a FIGS translator - there's enough work out there in any one pair/specialisation to keep any translator busy for many lifetimes. There's no reason for venturing into areas of lesser competence, though of course you may well want to push back the envelope of your comfort zone over time.
A second argument, which we have gone through ad-nauseum in several other forums, is that a native translator always produces a "best" translation, and a non-native translator never-ever produces a "best" translation.
Clearly there are enough evidence around to refute these claims and I need not go into them here.
I will only point out (again) that most of the people who claim that only natives can translate (or write, or speak) properly in their native language, mostly come from monolingual backgrounds and have no personal experience of multi-lingualism or what it is capable of throwing up (in terms of linguistic abilities).
What I actually wrote here was "a native speaker who is also a skilled writer and an experienced and talented translator with good comprehension of your own native language". I didn't say ANY native speaker would do a better job. If you look back to the OP's first post, you'll see that she comes from a monolingual background. I'm well aware there are exceptions, but this does not appear to me to be one. Of course, I haven't seen her output so I'm only going on past experience (in 21 years' expatriation from my native country). Such as the university professor of English I once had a conversation with in France. Responsible for teaching English at a very high level, this Frenchman was incapable of holding a normal conversation in the language and we eventually had to switch to French. His own linguistic education hadn't done much for his language skills.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:13
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | But isn't Canada bilingual? | May 7, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
What I actually wrote here was "a native speaker who is also a skilled writer and an experienced and talented translator with good comprehension of your own native language". I didn't say ANY native speaker would do a better job. If you look back to the OP's first post, you'll see that she comes from a monolingual background. I'm well aware there are exceptions, but this does not appear to me to be one. Of course, I haven't seen her output so I'm only going on past experience (in 21 years' expatriation from my native country). Such as the university professor of English I once had a conversation with in France. Responsible for teaching English at a very high level, this Frenchman was incapable of holding a normal conversation in the language and we eventually had to switch to French. His own linguistic education hadn't done much for his language skills.
Both UK and France are mono-lingual, and decades of public education in one language has obliterated any possibility of people there ever becoming bilingual in any sense.
However, isn't Canada different? It has two official languages in English and French, and all official communications are done in both languages as a legal requirement. I don't know much about the schooling system there, but I expect (if India is any example to go by), both the official languages are taught to kids there at an early age, giving them an opportunity to become bilingual in these two languages.
Also, since both these languages are spoken within the same country, it would be much easier to get an early exposure to these two languages within Canada for a Canadian, than it would be for a British or a French citizen to get an exposure to each other's languages within their country.
I recently read somewhere that UK is winding down foreign language teaching in its schools due to paucity of funds, and this will make the British even more monolingual and diminish their capacity to acquire or appreciate bi(or multi)lingualism.
| | | | katherinehache
Canada
Local time: 05:43
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Food for thought | May 7, 2015 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Certainly an in-house translator should be able to work in both directions. Once a company has invested in you, full-time, they need you to do whatever you can for them, even if you can sometimes only do a satisfactory job rather than an excellent one.
I am in fact hoping to become an in-house translator eventually, and from what I've seen so far the ability to work in both directions is an asset or even a requirement. That said, I would make it very clear that French is my "B" language; I don't think it would be ethical to pretend otherwise. As for my level of competency in the language, it's pretty good (I hold a DELF B2 certificate and will likely aim for a DALF in the near future) but a bit rusty, hence my desire to pursue a degree in EN-FR translation and do so in a French environment.
I appreciate the opinions everyone has given on specialization - I agree that it's smart to find a niche. If I do decide to pursue a second translation degree, I may very well minor in another subject at the same time. Really, I should've done the same with my current degree, but alas I figured this out too late.
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
However, isn't Canada different? It has two official languages in English and French, and all official communications are done in both languages as a legal requirement. I don't know much about the schooling system there, but I expect (if India is any example to go by), both the official languages are taught to kids there at an early age, giving them an opportunity to become bilingual in these two languages.
Canada is technically bilingual, but outside of Québec and certain areas of the Maritimes English is very much the dominant language. It's another reason why I'd like to be able to work towards French as well - documents do need to be in both languages because of the Official Languages Act, but most documents are written in English and require translation towards French. As for my personal language background: I grew up in an English-speaking household (although I was exposed to chiac and Frenglish through other family members) and went through the French immersion system in school. Because of this, French does come somewhat naturally to me but I do very much consider it to be my secondary language.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 10:43
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Let's stick to facts and to the topic | May 7, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Canada . . . has two official languages in English and French, and all official communications are done in both languages as a legal requirement.
Canadians are in the best position to answer that but those I've known bear out this Wiki statement "Over 85% of Canadians have working knowledge of English while only 30.1% have a working knowledge of French."
Both UK and France are mono-lingual, and decades of public education in one language has obliterated any possibility of people there ever becoming bilingual in any sense.
I recently read somewhere that UK is winding down foreign language teaching in its schools due to paucity of funds,and this will make the British even more monolingual and diminish their capacity to acquire or appreciate bi(or multi)lingualism.
Both wildly inaccurate and off topic.
| | | | | Translating into my native language is a doctrine I practise but don't preach! | May 7, 2015 |
When I worked in-house, the Danish translators worked both ways, but we English did not! I only write Danish for private purposes, but get it proofread by a Dane even then if it is important.
Danes grow up with English and typically hear a couple of hours of English and/or American on TV each day. How much they absorb and how well they speak and write English depends on a lot of things, but anyone with a higher education has to read at least one foreign language, usually English, be... See more When I worked in-house, the Danish translators worked both ways, but we English did not! I only write Danish for private purposes, but get it proofread by a Dane even then if it is important.
Danes grow up with English and typically hear a couple of hours of English and/or American on TV each day. How much they absorb and how well they speak and write English depends on a lot of things, but anyone with a higher education has to read at least one foreign language, usually English, because a lot of academic literature is not available in Danish. If they want to publish theses and papers, they often write them in English too.
Trained linguists such as the State Authorized Translators I worked with could often translate legal documents into English better than most natives, unless they are familiar with legalese - English and Danish, which you can't reckon everyone is. The same applies to Danish medical language, which requires a thorough knowledge of Latin. For highly specialised domains like that being a native speaker of the target language is not enough; training is necessary as well. In their case a 5-year MA - do you really want to commit to that sort of thing when you already have one degree?
If the situation in Canada is comparable, and you really can write French in specialised domains (or could learn to), a second degree just might be worthwhile, but even though Danes CAN translate both ways, many of them prefer to find a native speaker of English if possible, and pass the job on. With my Danish training, a lot of work comes to me that way.
In your shoes I would still be inclined to go for a specialist subject area (I chose medicine) and let the French translate into French, especially as there are presumably enough of them.
English native speakers with enough training are in short supply in many languages, and then the choice is often between a translation by a non-native speaker or no translation at all. And luckily some non-natives can do extremely well.
Best of luck, whatever you decide! ▲ Collapse
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 15:13
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Even a nominal exposure in early childhood is often sufficient | May 8, 2015 |
katherinehache wrote:
As for my personal language background: I grew up in an English-speaking household (although I was exposed to chiac and Frenglish through other family members) and went through the French immersion system in school. Because of this, French does come somewhat naturally to me but I do very much consider it to be my secondary language.
From what I know of language learning in a multi-lingual context (and India is indeed mind-bogglingly multi-lingual and multi-cultural), even a nominal or imperfect exposure to a language in the crucial "language learning period" (variously defined, but generally accepted as until puberty sets in) is often enough to plant the seed of a language in a person's mind, which can then be developed in later life to full-blown proficiency in that language matching native-level proficiency.
The real test whether you will achieve this native-level proficiency or not, is dependant on how you feel about the language. Do you feel a passion, devotion and commitment to the language bordering on insanity? If you do, then there is a likely chance of you excelling in that language.
It is this passion that distinguishes a native speaker and a non-native speaker of a language, and not birth or anything else. If you have the passion, it will impel you to excel in that language, and even you yourself won't be able to stop your course towards full proficiency.
So believe in yourself and develop that passion for French and given your early exposure to French in your family and in your school education, you will surely develop that proficiency in French that many well-educated French-speakers have.
A more complex question is whether it is possible for a person to have this kind of insane passion for two languages! Probably, the answer is on the lines of whether it is possible for a person to have two lovers! Many people believe it is not, no doubt by analogy with the second case, and that is why they believe and claim that people can have only one native language (there can be many proficient languages, though).
| | | | | Monetary and opportunity cost | May 8, 2015 |
Regardless of your feelings about the native vs. non-native issue, I think most here would agree that you'll come out of your program a better linguist, which is bound to help you as a translator. I think a lot of this boils down to the cost of your program and your own financial situation. I believe you said this is a 3-4 year degree? In the States that would cost well over 100,000 dollars, but perhaps Canada is different or you have access to a scholarship?
Debt is the mortal ene... See more Regardless of your feelings about the native vs. non-native issue, I think most here would agree that you'll come out of your program a better linguist, which is bound to help you as a translator. I think a lot of this boils down to the cost of your program and your own financial situation. I believe you said this is a 3-4 year degree? In the States that would cost well over 100,000 dollars, but perhaps Canada is different or you have access to a scholarship?
Debt is the mortal enemy of freelancers--it's not much fun to translate with the ax of monthly loan payments over your head. So be honest with yourself about whether or not you can afford this financially.
I'd also think about translating for a year or two before making your decision about going back to school. You've mentioned that you've only been freelancing for a couple of months. Your desire to be a translator may change in a year or two, or you may discover that you have a specialty you'd like to pursue a degree in. Additionally, an extra year or two will give you some perspective on whether or not this is the best use of your money. In a year or two you may discover that you'd like to start your own small agency, and that money you're earmarking for a second degree would go a long way towards helping with this.
So I'd suggest sticking things out for a year and then see how you feel afterwards about returning to school. ▲ Collapse
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You already are a F to EN translator. Since you have the time, the money and the drive to learn, then learn something new. Instead of going back and forth on the same track, use the time (which may be limited if you intend to have family) to learn a subject that will deepen your understanding as a translator as well as open up new opportunities.
Sandra
| | | | | Misunderstood? | May 8, 2015 |
Is your question whether or not you should spend 6-8 years and piles of money getting two Bachelor's Degrees with one that says "Translation: French to English" and one that says "Translation: English to French"? I feel like I must have misunderstood something.
If that is your question, I can't imagine that anyone would answer "yes". Getting an advanced degree or a second bachelor's in a relevant subject-matter field in a source-language country (or province) might make sense. Gaini... See more Is your question whether or not you should spend 6-8 years and piles of money getting two Bachelor's Degrees with one that says "Translation: French to English" and one that says "Translation: English to French"? I feel like I must have misunderstood something.
If that is your question, I can't imagine that anyone would answer "yes". Getting an advanced degree or a second bachelor's in a relevant subject-matter field in a source-language country (or province) might make sense. Gaining expertise while getting paid to work in a source-language country (or province) in a relevant subject-matter field probably makes even more sense, if you don't feel like or cannot start translating yet.
[Edited at 2015-05-08 09:34 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Michael Wetzel wrote:
Is your question whether or not you should spend 6-8 years and piles of money getting two Bachelor's Degrees with one that says "Translation: French to English" and one that says "Translation: English to French"? I feel like I must have misunderstood something.
If that is your question, I can't imagine that anyone would answer "yes". Getting an advanced degree or a second bachelor's in a relevant subject-matter field in a source-language country (or province) might make sense. Gaining expertise while getting paid to work in a source-language country (or province) in a relevant subject-matter field probably makes even more sense, if you don't feel like or cannot start translating yet.
[Edited at 2015-05-08 09:34 GMT]
I think Michael's spot-on the more I think about this. Unless you're aiming for the English to French degree purely out of a love for the language, I don't see how this would make good business sense. Companies are going to care much more about the fact that you're not a native French speaker than your English to French degree, and the only way you'll be able to convince them otherwise is if you're able to write at a native or near-native level in French--and you can achieve this many other ways than an English to French degree.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:43
Hebrew to English
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Both UK and France are mono-lingual, and decades of public education in one language has obliterated any possibility of people there ever becoming bilingual in any sense.
You make this claim quite a lot but it just isn't true. The UK is most certainly not "monolingual" in most senses of the word.
I only have to travel about 12 miles west (probably less) of where I live to end up in a place where Welsh is spoken. If I travel a few more miles up the road I end up in a place where Welsh is actually the dominant language, not English.
There's also a fair bit of bilingual education going on.
And that's before I get onto Scotland and Ireland (not to mention the more recent Cornish and Manx revivals), and not to mention the so-called "community" languages.
Saying "the UK is monolingual" is a vast simplification.
I can't comment on France, but I believe that French is not the only language...
| | | | Diana Obermeyer
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:43
Member (2013)
German to English
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Preston Decker wrote: Michael Wetzel wrote:
Is your question whether or not you should spend 6-8 years and piles of money getting two Bachelor's Degrees with one that says "Translation: French to English" and one that says "Translation: English to French"? I feel like I must have misunderstood something.
If that is your question, I can't imagine that anyone would answer "yes". Getting an advanced degree or a second bachelor's in a relevant subject-matter field in a source-language country (or province) might make sense. Gaining expertise while getting paid to work in a source-language country (or province) in a relevant subject-matter field probably makes even more sense, if you don't feel like or cannot start translating yet.
[Edited at 2015-05-08 09:34 GMT] I think Michael's spot-on the more I think about this. Unless you're aiming for the English to French degree purely out of a love for the language, I don't see how this would make good business sense. Companies are going to care much more about the fact that you're not a native French speaker than your English to French degree, and the only way you'll be able to convince them otherwise is if you're able to write at a native or near-native level in French--and you can achieve this many other ways than an English to French degree.
I don't have any proper translation qualifications and have never been asked about them by direct clients. Agencies often do ask about this, but then they tend to prefer translators to translate in one direction only. Most of my direct clients want the opposite: one go-to translator for a language pair and that means both directions. What they are really interested in is subject-specific knowledge. The only type of client where I can see a benefit for acquiring a qualification for both, translation to and from a given language, are international organisations or your "bilingual government".
The competency aspect has been covered above - there are more effective ways to acquire specialist knowledge and enhance linguistic proficiency than repeating a degree.
If the qualification per se is important to you, there are other options. I don't know anything about French nor Canadian qualifications, so you would need to do your own research on this issue.
Here in the UK, the DipTrans is a post-graduate qualification. While preparatory courses are available, they are not compulsory. It is therefore possible to enter the exam without formal study. These exams are also available in several other countries.
In Germany, the two main exams have different pre-requisites, one being commerce based and the other one more along the lines of a generalist translation qualification. For both, study is recommended. However, other proof of proficiency is accepted for exam entry - previous degrees, degrees completed in the second language, work experience, etc. AFAIK, these are for combinations with German, but it still illustrates the point that qualification without endless additional study is possible.
Other, similar options may be available in Canada. Your national translator's association should be able to provide some guidance.
Finally, why not a Master's? If you are determined to pursue the university route, why not apply for an MA rather than a second BA?
[Edited at 2015-05-08 13:55 GMT]
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