| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What is the most profitable language to pair with English? Thread poster: tjnisonger (X)
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Woodstock (X) 
Germany
Local time: 00:53
German to English
+ ...
| @Marie-Helene: Did you read the OP's opening question? | Jul 25, 2013 |
Marie-Helene Dubois wrote:
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I also wouldn't discourage anyone from becoming a translator. OK. It won't make you a millionaire because it's a profession and it's not scalable, but there are plenty of other things that won't either. I also think that if you spend most of your life working, you might as well be doing something you enjoy, and I for one enjoy translating.
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I agree with you Marie-Helene, and I love what I do and find it very rewarding in a non-monetary sense. Your opinons are pretty much in line with mine, but you seem to have missed something:
The very first thing this poster asked was "What is the most profitable language to pair with English?"- emphasis on PROFITABLE. I think it's very clear this person is looking at the profession primarily from a financial perspective, which is quite an American thing to do - and I can say that because I'm an American and understand where this materialistic attitude comes from, even if I don't agree with it. That was the basis of my and Ty's responses, not that he or I are looking at the profession from that perspective.
Secondly, the "living hell" comment came from someone else entirely, so the referenced quotes from me and then Ty have nothing at all to do with your extended opinion on that particular topic. You are targeting the wrong translators, I think. I hope this clears things up.
Edited for clarity
[Edited at 2013-07-25 09:58 GMT]
| | | | | I agree --if you want to choose the translator's profession | Jul 25, 2013 |
with the only intent of making money, even if you find it it slightly interesting at the same time, I think it might be better to look into something else that is connected with languages as well-- international financial corporations and things like that.
If you love languages, literature, linguistics and investigation (investigating all possible meanings of words in different contexts), you may be successful in that type of studies, or work.
There may be more money i... See more with the only intent of making money, even if you find it it slightly interesting at the same time, I think it might be better to look into something else that is connected with languages as well-- international financial corporations and things like that.
If you love languages, literature, linguistics and investigation (investigating all possible meanings of words in different contexts), you may be successful in that type of studies, or work.
There may be more money in interpreting, but it may require even more time and special skills to learn. Translation may be profitable, if you are good at it, love it and have the right specializations and client-finding skills-- then you will be alright.
[Edited at 2013-07-25 09:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Perhaps a 'niche' language - and my source language chose me | Jul 25, 2013 |
You should, as others have mentioned, choose a language you love. Try to understand 'profitable' in the widest sense, including other benefits beside money!
Money is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
An Indian proverb says the richest people in this world are not those who have lots of money, but those who are content.
You may find that important in translation - it is certainly not always highly paid, but you can earn a good living if you have other goal... See more You should, as others have mentioned, choose a language you love. Try to understand 'profitable' in the widest sense, including other benefits beside money!
Money is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
An Indian proverb says the richest people in this world are not those who have lots of money, but those who are content.
You may find that important in translation - it is certainly not always highly paid, but you can earn a good living if you have other goals than high earnings.
It IS a relationship - you live and breathe and dream in it, quite literally! Unlike many other jobs, working with languages is a long-term commitment, not something you do for three or four years and move on. Many translators are just begining to get into their stride after three or four years, and old translators are among the best if they keep studying and keep up with developments.
You can only learn a limited amount of a language by studying in university or from books and grammars. You only learn it properly when you live in communities that speak it and talk to the natives, read their newspapers and study their history and join in their culture.
_______________
You CAN learn a language as an adult. I was quite good at German and French from school, and university, but still do not work in them professionally. Then I ended up in my late twenties living in Denmark with a branch of the family in Sweden.
Half a lifetime later, I feel Danish is a second native language, and I write and speak it as well as many natives. However, I still only translate into Danish as an exercise, or for private purposes, never professionally, although on paper I am qualified to do so. I started translating in my fifties, and there IS still something missing from those first twenty-seven years, when I did not speak Danish at all. My theory is that if you go on studying languages, especially if you are highly motivated and perhaps in love, then you can extend that window for quite a long time.
______________
Which brings me to my next point.
The most profitable language is really the one you feel most comfortable with. There will be plenty of struggles even then, with poor source texts, difficult terminology and other challenges, not to mention tight deadlines now and then. You have to be motivated enough to keep going.
Looking back on the challenges and using the experience later is what makes it fun. You do need some plain sailing as well, and that is also when you are working most efficiently and profitably. Machine translation will take over the routine work, and it will never replace humans, but there will be less 'easy' work for professional translators.
_____________
You have to choose a language or a specialist subject area where there is enough work, so you don't have long periods with nothing to do.
You also have to consider machine translation and post-editing if you are going to be around for a whole career. It works far better in some language pairs than others, and will increasingly affect the work of human translators in some pairs.
A slightly unusual language reduces the competition - I find this with Danish. Denmark is in the EU and trades all over the world. With English as the target language, there is always plenty of work for specialist translators. Machine translation is still very poor in many areas, although with controlled input and dedicated translation engines it is getting to the point where it has to be taken seriously for routine texts.
What subject areas are you interested in?
With an unusual language, it is easier to get by as a generalist, but the specialist work pays best.
In some of the unusual languages there may be large volumes of work in a particular subject area - so choose the language of a country famous for a subject area you are interested in.
Danes are experts in wind turbines and sustainable energy technology in general, and Denmark exports agricultural products. There is also a lot of pharmaceutical research in Denmark. With a population of only 5.6 million, there is no automotive industry and no mining in the country, for instance. Those industries are more important in Sweden.
Look at the geography and industries of other countries and take factors like that into consideration.
Consider their standards of living, climate and politics - you should be happy about living for extended periods in the country. I would never go to the north of Norway or Sweden in winter, for instance, but some people love it! Denmark is as cold and dark as I can stand! But in the summer... this year it is really making up for it.
There are thousands of possibilities... and money is only one aspect to consider.
Best of luck!
 ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:23
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I was referring to target language | Jul 25, 2013 |
Tim Drayton wrote:
You should beware of making rash generalisations. I first started learning Turkish at the age of 31 and this is now my main source language. I have passed the Institute of Linguists Diploma in Translation from Turkish into English, obtaining a merit grade in all sections, and I have no doubts whatsoever about my proficiency in this language.
Despite having no doubts whatsoever about your proficiency in Turkish, you are not translating into it. Isn't that because you don't consider your proficiency in Turkish sufficient enough for translating into it? And isn't this lack of proficiency in Turkish (if that is true) due to the fact that you started your learning of Turkish when you were into the third decade of your life?
That is what I was implying. In most cases, people beginning to learn a language after 15, manage to pick up only enough of the language to be able to order a dinner in a restaurant in that language and get what they ordered. For translation purposes, you clearly need a much higher level of proficiency in the language, even if you are planning to use it only as your source language.
My Gujarati is similar to your Turkish. My first exposure to Gujarati began when I got a job in Ahmedabad after finishing college (around 23 years of age). Even though I went on to live another two decades in Ahmedabad, I never picked up native-level proficiency in Gujarati. Even today, I hardly can speak Gujarati, even though Gujarati is much more similar to Hindi, my main language, than Turkish is to English. But I can perfectly understand spoken Gujarati and written Gujarati, and often translate complex texts in Gujarati into Hindi and English, but never the other way around.
So this is not so much a generalization but a commonly observed fact in language learning. You rarely are able to learn a language to a high level of proficiency when you begin the process after 15 years or so. You almost hundred percent won't be able to achieve full spoken command over the language if you start learning it after your vocal cords have hardened to the sound of a language you were exposed to earlier in life.
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| Dead language | Jul 25, 2013 |
tjnisonger wrote: I'm about done with prereq's and I need some pointers as to which language I should pursue intensively. I've tried out Spanish, German, Russian and Japanese. All of these seem to be languages I feel confident in being able to grasp, although I've had the most luck with German. I am unsure about what I should be focusing on though. Is it better to aim for a language that many people speak or to focus on languages that are not widely spoken? I like the idea of Russian or Japanese the most. I am open to other languages I haven't had exposure to, though. I would probably focus on government or business projects. I guess it comes down to this: 1) Aim for widely spoken languages or no? 2) How does English-Russian or English-Japanese sound for someone interested in either government or business backgrounds? Thanks for any help.
Latin could actually be very profitable if learnt to a really fluent level, but I'm digressing.
You've been given good advice especially on 3 points:
1. You should choose the language you like the best or are the best at, which is not always the same. You'll probably be the best at making money where you're the best at translating. This said, yeah, work from Russia may likely pay much less.
2. It will take you a long while to gain the kind of comprehension of a foreign language to be a reliable translator without needing to be extra careful and very mindful of your limitations. Some people do get away with translating from a language they know on an intermediate level, but the general truth is that even C2 isn't a sufficient guarantee that the translator won't fail to understand the source (which happens all the time around us).
3. It will take you even longer, if at all, to learn a foreign language to the point of translating into it reliably and independently.
| | | | | Generalisations | Jul 25, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If you are past 15, it would be very difficult for you to acquire proficiency in any language that would be considered sufficient for the purpose of translation.
Excuse my bluntness, but this is a completely erroneous statement. I went to university at 19 and picked up Italian (in addition to the German I had studied at high school). I then moved to Italy and began using Italian as my only working language, and have a successful 10 year career under my belt.
And there's more - I'm currently doing my nursing degree at the university of Bologna, taking classes in all the subjects the profession demands, as well as doing my clinical placements very successfully. People often comment on how well I speak Italian; not to blow my own trumpet but to reiterate that age is not really a barrier to language learning, if you have a propensity for language learning and are willing to work at learning the language you desire.
I would agree with Lilian that you need to study a language you love; taking up a language for commercial gain alone is a dangerous path. You need to love the country and its culture to work with the language successfully.
Best of luck with your choice.
| | | | | Not just about per-word rates | Jul 25, 2013 |
If you want to focus solely on the financial side of things (and I agree with those who say there are other factors that a would-be translator can usefully consider), bear in mind that the amount of money you earn will depend not just on your per-word rate but also on the speed at which you translate from a given language, and you may find that your speed varies from one language to another. I seem to have a greater aptitude for Romance languages and have found them relatively easy to study when... See more If you want to focus solely on the financial side of things (and I agree with those who say there are other factors that a would-be translator can usefully consider), bear in mind that the amount of money you earn will depend not just on your per-word rate but also on the speed at which you translate from a given language, and you may find that your speed varies from one language to another. I seem to have a greater aptitude for Romance languages and have found them relatively easy to study whenever I've tried (including Italian and Spanish, which I don't actually work with), and I can translate from French and Romanian at relatively high speeds, whereas I work a bit more slowly when translating from Russian as I find the mental gymnastics more taxing (mainly due to the very different sentence construction and word order, I think). So the amount you can translate in a given period of time is another factor to consider alongside your per-word rate. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:53
Hebrew to English
| Misapplication of CPH | Jul 25, 2013 |
Fiona Peterson wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If you are past 15, it would be very difficult for you to acquire proficiency in any language that would be considered sufficient for the purpose of translation. Excuse my bluntness, but this is a completely erroneous statement.
Spot on Fiona. Bala is adopting an extreme interpretation of the CPH (Critical Period Hypothesis) which, for SLA as opposed to first language acquisition, has been largely discredited...
The theory has often been extended to a critical period for second-language acquisition (SLA), although this is much less widely accepted. Certainly, older learners of a second language rarely achieve the native-like fluency that younger learners display, despite often progressing faster than children in the initial stages. David Singleton[10] states that in learning a second language, "younger = better in the long run," but points out that there are many exceptions, noting that five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close.
While the window for learning a second language never completely closes, certain linguistic aspects appear to be more affected by the age of the learner than others. For example, adult second-language learners nearly always retain an immediately identifiable foreign accent, including some who display perfect grammar (Oyama 1976). Some writers have suggested a younger critical age for learning phonology than for syntax. Singleton (1995) reports that there is no critical period for learning vocabulary in a second language. Robertson (2002)][11] observed that factors other than age may be even more significant in successful second-language learning, such as personal motivation, anxiety, input and output skills, settings and time commitment.
On reviewing the published material, Bialystok and Hakuta (1994) conclude that second-language learning is not necessarily subject to biological critical periods, but "on average, there is a continuous decline in ability [to learn] with age."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis#Second-language_acquisition
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:23
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Translation requires above normal proficiency in languages | Jul 25, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Fiona Peterson wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
If you are past 15, it would be very difficult for you to acquire proficiency in any language that would be considered sufficient for the purpose of translation. Excuse my bluntness, but this is a completely erroneous statement. Spot on Fiona. Bala is adopting an extreme interpretation of the CPH (Critical Period Hypothesis) which, for SLA as opposed to first language acquisition, has been largely discredited...
Ty's lengthy quote is inconclusive that adults can learn new languages to levels of proficiency that is required for translation. It may be possible to pick up some aspects of a new language as an adult, but gaining all round competency is in most cases near to impossible, especially with speech.
And it takes years of dedicated effort even to acquire rudimentary competency in a language.
So a translator who is 30 deciding today that the market in Spanish to Chinese is on the rise (to take an example) can't just enroll into a Spanish and Chinese language teaching class for the weekends and have his Spanish to Chinese translation practice up and ready and earning money for him in about six months.
[Edited at 2013-07-25 15:33 GMT]
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 00:53
French to English
| haven't you read what Fiona and Christine wrote? | Jul 25, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It may be possible to pick up some aspects of a new language as an adult, but gaining all round competency is in most cases near to impossible, especially with speech.
And it takes years of dedicated effort even to acquire rudimentary competency in a language.
So a translator who is 30 deciding today that the market in Spanish to Chinese is on the rise (to take an example) can't just enroll into a Spanish and Chinese language teaching class for the weekends and have his Spanish to Chinese translation practice up and ready and earning money for him in about six months.
[Edited at 2013-07-25 15:33 GMT]
But there are successful translators who have done just that, haven't you read what Fiona and Christine wrote?
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:53
Hebrew to English
| I know it's lengthy but you really should have read it... | Jul 25, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
especially with speech.
Fortunately translation doesn't require speech or a flawless accent.
inconclusive that adults can learn new languages to levels of proficiency that is required for translation
...again...
five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close
[Edited at 2013-07-25 16:04 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:23
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The half empty glass | Jul 25, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
... five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close
In other words, 95% adult bilinguals don't master a second language when they begin learning it in adulthood.
[Edited at 2013-07-25 16:07 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:53
Hebrew to English
| You mean you didn't know that? | Jul 25, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
... five percent of adult bilinguals master a second language even though they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close In other words, 95% adult bilinguals don't master a second language when they begin learning it when they are well into adulthood—long after any critical period has presumably come to a close.
It's a well known fact that language learning is an endeavour with an extremely low success rate. You were claiming it was simply impossible, it is not, it is just relatively rare.
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Christine Andersen wrote: You should, as others have mentioned, choose a language you love. Try to understand 'profitable' in the widest sense, including other benefits beside money! Money is a means to an end, not an end in itself. An Indian proverb says the richest people in this world are not those who have lots of money, but those who are content. You may find that important in translation - it is certainly not always highly paid, but you can earn a good living if you have other goals than high earnings. It IS a relationship - you live and breathe and dream in it, quite literally! Unlike many other jobs, working with languages is a long-term commitment, not something you do for three or four years and move on. Many translators are just begining to get into their stride after three or four years, and old translators are among the best if they keep studying and keep up with developments. You can only learn a limited amount of a language by studying in university or from books and grammars. You only learn it properly when you live in communities that speak it and talk to the natives, read their newspapers and study their history and join in their culture. _______________ You CAN learn a language as an adult. I was quite good at German and French from school, and university, but still do not work in them professionally. Then I ended up in my late twenties living in Denmark with a branch of the family in Sweden. Half a lifetime later, I feel Danish is a second native language, and I write and speak it as well as many natives. However, I still only translate into Danish as an exercise, or for private purposes, never professionally, although on paper I am qualified to do so. I started translating in my fifties, and there IS still something missing from those first twenty-seven years, when I did not speak Danish at all. My theory is that if you go on studying languages, especially if you are highly motivated and perhaps in love, then you can extend that window for quite a long time. ______________ Which brings me to my next point. The most profitable language is really the one you feel most comfortable with. There will be plenty of struggles even then, with poor source texts, difficult terminology and other challenges, not to mention tight deadlines now and then. You have to be motivated enough to keep going. Looking back on the challenges and using the experience later is what makes it fun. You do need some plain sailing as well, and that is also when you are working most efficiently and profitably. Machine translation will take over the routine work, and it will never replace humans, but there will be less 'easy' work for professional translators. _____________ You have to choose a language or a specialist subject area where there is enough work, so you don't have long periods with nothing to do. You also have to consider machine translation and post-editing if you are going to be around for a whole career. It works far better in some language pairs than others, and will increasingly affect the work of human translators in some pairs. A slightly unusual language reduces the competition - I find this with Danish. Denmark is in the EU and trades all over the world. With English as the target language, there is always plenty of work for specialist translators. Machine translation is still very poor in many areas, although with controlled input and dedicated translation engines it is getting to the point where it has to be taken seriously for routine texts. What subject areas are you interested in? With an unusual language, it is easier to get by as a generalist, but the specialist work pays best. In some of the unusual languages there may be large volumes of work in a particular subject area - so choose the language of a country famous for a subject area you are interested in. Danes are experts in wind turbines and sustainable energy technology in general, and Denmark exports agricultural products. There is also a lot of pharmaceutical research in Denmark. With a population of only 5.6 million, there is no automotive industry and no mining in the country, for instance. Those industries are more important in Sweden. Look at the geography and industries of other countries and take factors like that into consideration. Consider their standards of living, climate and politics - you should be happy about living for extended periods in the country. I would never go to the north of Norway or Sweden in winter, for instance, but some people love it! Denmark is as cold and dark as I can stand! But in the summer... this year it is really making up for it. There are thousands of possibilities... and money is only one aspect to consider. Best of luck!
One of the best post I've ever read on ProZ. It should be sticked to I&T universities' doors before students can even enter.
Had I read it 4 years ago, I would have saved a lot of time and money avoiding a language I don't actually love that will never provide me with jobs in areas I'm interested in (even if I managed to reach proficiency in said language, which is unlikely to happen).
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:23
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | 95% failure rate = impossible | Jul 25, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's a well known fact that language learning is an endeavour with an extremely low success rate. You were claiming it was simply impossible, it is not, it is just relatively rare.
It would be quibbling to fight over whether an enterprise with 95% failure rate is an impossible enterprise or one that rarely succeeds.
Most would agree that it is an impossible one.
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