| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Seven years' experience but can't find freelance work? Thread poster: mattsmith
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Sorry Tomás. It wasn't supposed to be an estimate and I realize that my use of "literally" may have been misleading. It was of course a massive exaggeration. I've never had the time to sit down and count the amount of agencies there are because of my millions of projects I'm busy with
| | | | Diana Coada (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:19
Portuguese to English
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| Are you serious? | Jun 4, 2013 |
Mark Benson wrote:
While I commend willingness to pay translators good money for good work, I would be very interested to learn why you don't take advantage of market conditions in order to pay less.
This is exactly what's wrong in the profession: OUR MENTALITY.
| | | | | Still need the poor proofer, I'm afraid | Jun 4, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
Then everyone (incl. Siegfried) will know how good you must be, and work will come pouring in.
That seems to be the thinking here among some members: If you're "cheap", you can't be good.
Others will suggest you must charge rates that allow you to finance your lifestyle, irrespective of the quality of work you deliver. (If you're charging high rates, you must be good.)
Both views are bollocks, IMO.
I say: Charge as much as the best if you're as good as they are. Charge less accordingly.
We/Context (outsourcers) look for affordable quality. Quality first, affordability second. If two candidates offer equal quality, then we look at their rates...
FYI.
From my experience as an outsourcer: Translators who are used to low rates often adopt a certain "sweatshop mentality". They automatically seem to assume that each and every job is to be done as fast as possible at "sufficient" quality and that there will be some cleaning woman, aka poor proofreader, who will take care of any mess. Research appears to be negligible and fast typing is key. No, thanks. Those translations will cost you more than a any job done right in the first place. The most cost-efficient projects are done by translators who take pride in their work and who consider top-notch quality the only acceptable standard and who charge accordingly. When I outsource, I take care of the editing myself. Dealing with cheap jobs is not feasible because there is one heck of an expensive proofreader at work.
As someone who almost never allows his preservation instinct to interfere with his writing, I've got to say that I view skipping proofreaders as higher-profile corner cutting but still corner cutting. The difference isn't really huge. In both cases it comes down to savings and is suboptimal practice.
I may be tainted by sweatshop mentality, but there is something I like about sufficient quality. You do the translation right per professional standards and that's it. On the other hand, 'high quality' expectations frequently turn out to be tied to what common law refers to as the satisfaction standard, which, as a civil lawyer by education and first brief so called career, I find scary. In practice, it tends to lead to a 'client is always right' mentality, which allows all sorts of unqualified people to act as proofreaders, reviewers etc. Heck, even among qualified linguists, the highest levels of quality are extremely subjective; few people in fact comprehend the difference between objective mistake or objective improvement and a preferential chance.
I hate the above sort of thing possibly more than I do low rates. To be frank, I just want them to go away and leave me alone, I don't care if they're satisfied or not when they don't know their grammar or can't write to save their lives or don't know or respect the professional standards of proofreading or editing. Sufficient quality standard spares a lot of headache in such a situation. It's not that you didn't or didn't want to deliver high quality, it's just that people are barred from disputing it, which is sweet.
Anyway, there's always gotta be a second pair of eyes. Nemo good cleaning woman in causa sua as jurists say. In my view, people don't have a right to expect the equivalent of full 'TEP' without being ready to pay the equivalent of full payment for it. Even then, it's just not optimal to fuse too many rules together.
Diana Coada, BA RPSI wrote:
This is exactly what's wrong in the profession: OUR MENTALITY.
Sim.
The first and foremost problem with that, IMHO, is the 'client is always right' attitude and allowing outsourcers to act like consumers. When was the last time you saw a lawyer editing points of law in his memo because a client insisted? Or a doctor diagnose or surgeon operate for a different illness than was really the case? Or an X-ray technician allow his description of scans to be dictated by a patient?
For one, I never let some dude with FCE (or, respectively, merely conversant Polish) 'review' my work or propose 'improvements'. And this is not going to change, even if I should need to charge less and have less business.
[Edited at 2013-06-04 15:27 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-04 15:27 GMT]
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Unfortunately emailing agencies is no longer a sensible way of contacting them, since most of them are suffering the permanent attack of spammers and "email blast services" (another name for spammers) who swamp everybody with freelancer applications, a few legitimate, many fake. Agencies have learnt to completely disregard email applications. Legitimate emails from individual freelancers are only interesting for CV gatherers and database growers.
The best you can do is to keep receiving training and education in translation, keep improving your profile so that interested agencies can find you and contact you instead, raise your rates so that possible customers do not consider that you are low-quality, and... focus your marketing on other ways of getting customers, for instance good old visits or calls to agencies nearby and/or calls to companies in your area that could need your services.
Unfortunately, we live in a privacy craze era. Just like people focus on their tiny ailments if they have nothing better to think about, people these days 1) act like primadonnas on Facebook, but 2) at the same time jealously guard their privacy like it's an important secret and there's a horde of paparazzi after them. The sad truth is that there is not, and pretending otherwise is kinda sad. Nonetheless, cold calling would probably be ill-welcome. Otherwise it would be a great way to make first contact, while proving that you're a real person and, perhaps, fluent or native in whatever language you speak on that phone.
Mark Benson wrote:
What do you see as a problem, except for the rates in and of themselves?
Well, Matt's lowish rate is probably based on his 7 years of experience at this particular agency. What can you learn at an agency that pays 7 cents? Not much more than how to cash in on translators, I suppose.
Apart from that, twenty years ago, 7 cents was seven cents. Not much, but it was 7 cents. Nowadays, the first thing Matt's former colleagues will tell him is that they pay all their translators 5 cents. Standard procedure. So Matt will happily accept 6 cents, a whole cent more than other freelancers! And that's before the TFtT discount...
Cheers,
Hans
[Edited at 2013-06-04 04:29 GMT] [/quote]
What some freelancers take some time to understand is that a freelancer can't charge similar total gross rates to what his hourly earnings were on a salary before. You actually need to double or triple them, just like a lawyer needs his billable hours to pay for his non-billables, not to mention overhead (which includes marketing).
[Edited at 2013-06-04 15:34 GMT]
| | | | | We are looking for specialists | Jun 4, 2013 |
Mark Benson wrote:
7 years of successful in-house employment
Ability to translate both from German and French
Specialization in marketing, telecoms, law and finance
MA in translation studies from UCL
I am not stupid, but I am not even able to specialize in all medical, pharmaceutical and med tech fields, so how reliable is a specialization in "marketing, telecoms, law and finance"
Today we were looking for a German -> French (native) translator specialized in ophthalmology with med tech background. And If I say "specialized" I mean specialized.
It's interesting to note that some agencies don't even charge their clients 0.07€ per word.
There are no agencies charging their clients 0.07€ per word. I don't know how to call these "enterprises", even "box shifter" can't live on such a rate.
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| The high quality market is a seller's market | Jun 4, 2013 |
Mark Benson wrote:
While I commend willingness to pay translators good money for good work, I would be very interested to learn why you don't take advantage of market conditions in order to pay less.
I would love to take advantage of the market conditions, but the specialized high quality translation market is a seller's market.
[Edited at 2013-06-04 18:26 GMT]
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[Edited at 2013-06-04 20:19 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:19
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Erm, Łukasz, hello? | Jun 5, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Still need the poor proofer, I'm afraid
As someone who almost never allows his preservation instinct to interfere with his writing, I've got to say that I view skipping proofreaders as higher-profile corner cutting but still corner cutting. The difference isn't really huge. In both cases it comes down to savings and is suboptimal practice.
Apparently you didn't read my post properly.
When I outsource translations for my direct clients because I am booked up, I will take care of the editing myself because the finished quality product is my responsibility. What exactly makes you think that I don't do my job right?
Please read my post again - I take any comparison to envelope pushers personally, and I am not amused.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 19:49
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Capitalism was never known for its altruism | Jun 5, 2013 |
Diana Coada, BA RPSI wrote: Mark Benson wrote:
While I commend willingness to pay translators good money for good work, I would be very interested to learn why you don't take advantage of market conditions in order to pay less.
This is exactly what's wrong in the profession: OUR MENTALITY.
May be, but that is how capitalism functions.
Why else do multinational companies abandon their own countries where millions are unemployed and set up their production units in countries where labour is cheap? Their "mentality" is quite comfortable with keeping their compatriots unemployed and in misery while earning hefty profits for themselves.
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Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
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| Would you treat a cold with antibiotics? | Jun 5, 2013 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote: Mark Benson wrote:
7 years of successful in-house employment
Ability to translate both from German and French
Specialization in marketing, telecoms, law and finance
MA in translation studies from UCL
I am not stupid, but I am not even able to specialize in all medical, pharmaceutical and med tech fields, so how reliable is a specialization in "marketing, telecoms, law and finance" Today we were looking for a German -> French (native) translator specialized in ophthalmology with med tech background. And If I say "specialized" I mean specialized.
Understood. This profile is obviously not at all interesting to you.
It might be, though, to agencies dealing with projects where a high level of specialization isn't necessary, looking for a translator who is more of a "generalist" with experience in certain overall categories of texts.
Mark Benson wrote:
It's interesting to note that some agencies don't even charge their clients 0.07€ per word.
Siegried Ambruster wrote:
There are no agencies charging their clients 0.07€ per word. I don't know how to call these "enterprises", even "box shifter" can't live on such a rate.
But there are, regardless of what your definitions are.
Siegried Ambruster wrote:
I would love to take advantage of the market conditions, but the specialized high quality translation market is a seller's market.
You've gone beyond the point. If you read the original post, we were talking about what I would best describe as generalist translation with experience concentrated in certain overall subject area categories.
This sort of experience, or similar things, is actually often referred to as specialization, even though it doesn't at all mean that the "specialized" translator is the sort of specialist you're looking for.
You said that you take low rates as a "sure sign of problems". If I were in your shoes, I would simply know that the person asking them would not be able to give me what I'm on the market for.
In this case low rates aren't necessarily a sure sign of problems. If someone normally pays 0.1€ per word for a good translator to take care of projects that don't need any specialist knowledge, and someone offers them to work for 0.07€ per word, would you advice to decline such an offer?
Apparently you only deal with texts that require a translator with high qualifications in various medical fields. Please understand that the "generalist with specialization" high quality translation market is a buyer's market more than it is a seller's market.
| | | | | More like rambled | Jun 5, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Still need the poor proofer, I'm afraid
As someone who almost never allows his preservation instinct to interfere with his writing, I've got to say that I view skipping proofreaders as higher-profile corner cutting but still corner cutting. The difference isn't really huge. In both cases it comes down to savings and is suboptimal practice. Apparently you didn't read my post properly. When I outsource translations for my direct clients because I am booked up, I will take care of the editing myself because the finished quality product is my responsibility. What exactly makes you think that I don't do my job right? Please read my post again - I take any comparison to envelope pushers personally, and I am not amused.
No, Nicole, that wasn't directed personally at you, although your post occasioned my lengthy rambling about the state of our 'industry'. I'm sorry for casting that kind of impression, and I should have phrased myself more clearly. Please accept my apologies. I surely did ignore the part when you said you took care of the editing, and since those jobs are in your own pair, you do understand the source language, which covers all that is needed. And what is needed from a translator who outsources some of the work is work of the same quality as the work not outsourced.
On the other hand, the one-person TEP expectation is growingly popular among agencies, which seem to have started to believe that it's the translator's responsibility to cover all those angles without assistance. In contrast, what those agencies should instead have in place, and sometimes claim to have in place, is a process line involving at least three 'linguists': translator, separate proofreader, separate editor. If not separate people actually, then at least separate roles, but in any case not just one pair of eyes.
I still wanted to highlight some problems that are inherently involved in expecting the highest quality as the only acceptable standard--as opposed to some kind of sufficiency that admits of the human factor. Those problems being that the higher quality is expected, the more subjective the evaluation becomes, and while everything looks good in theory, in practice such high quality will tend to mean satisfaction instead. That, in turn, is something I consider an important problem in this 'industry'.
[Edited at 2013-06-05 12:12 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-05 12:14 GMT]
| | | | Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Diana Coada, BA RPSI wrote: Mark Benson wrote:
While I commend willingness to pay translators good money for good work, I would be very interested to learn why you don't take advantage of market conditions in order to pay less.
This is exactly what's wrong in the profession: OUR MENTALITY.
I don't know exactly what mentality you are referring to. One mentality I tend to notice is a sort of superficiality, where freelance translators base the rates they want on what they think their work is worth rather than what it actually is worth.
In this case, "Matt vs. Siegfried", Matt's rates are absurdly low. Where Matt is faced with the market as a whole, and in particular the kind of work he would be able to do on it, the rates aren't absurd at all.
While Łukasz makes an exceedingly relevant point about how to survive as a translator, it still remains true that rates are one part of what will enable take-off. I don't believe that Matt has based his suggested rate on anything but a sound assessment of what he could live on and how as , anything else would be insulting.
| | | | | Prices tend to fall in a buyer's market | Jun 5, 2013 |
Sure, I understand quite well what you are saying and I agree with you.
Mark Benson wrote:
Please understand that the "generalist with specialization" high quality translation market is a buyer's market more than it is a seller's market.
The point is that prices tend to fall in a buyer's market. This is just a fact and sure every translator has the right to his/her own business decisions. If a translator wants to serve a buyer's market, fine with me.
Mark Benson wrote:Would you treat a cold with antibiotics?
No specialist would do such a thing. He/she would know that antibiotics don't work against viral infections
[Edited at 2013-06-05 12:53 GMT]
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Mark Benson wrote: Diana Coada, BA RPSI wrote: Mark Benson wrote:
While I commend willingness to pay translators good money for good work, I would be very interested to learn why you don't take advantage of market conditions in order to pay less.
This is exactly what's wrong in the profession: OUR MENTALITY. I don't know exactly what mentality you are referring to. One mentality I tend to notice is a sort of superficiality, where freelance translators base the rates they want on what they think their work is worth rather than what it actually is worth.
Well, that reminds me of an article I've read recently about Aquinas's view of commerce vs modern capitalism. Anyway, the problem here is that it's hard to assess any sort of 'what it actually is worth'. The economic benefit to the client, or even subjective value to the client, isn't all in the job's worth. Legal translations where the amount in dispute or the value of the contract is sky-high don't really cost that much more than any other legal translation, if at all. Then again, you could say the economic benefit to the client isn't from the translation alone. That basically puts the value of that translation back in the starting point.
Aquinas's view could be summarised in one point: you shouldn't really be cashing-in on opportunities, all you charge should reflect the value you bring in, that mostly being some kind of expense or work on your part. But that still doesn't solve the problem of what makes a fair hourly rate, for instance. A function of time consumed, costs of education, bills to pay etc.? Well, those factors don't make a perfect guarantee of anything. They surely tie into the ethical consideration of what's fair to charge, but they don't determine objective value, if there is such a thing.
... On the other hand, I'd surely disagree with a delusional capitalist view that whatever the market forces you to charge or allows you to get away with charging is fair value. Perhaps if the buyers and sellers all have perfect information and are immune from too much pressure, which wouldn't be reasonable to presume.
Hence, it's really hard to nail down any sort of precise actual value of translation.
In this case, "Matt vs. Siegfried", Matt's rates are absurdly low. Where Matt is faced with the market as a whole, and in particular the kind of work he would be able to do on it, the rates aren't absurd at all.
As we say in Poland, plenty of water will flow through the Vistula river before I can get to charge anywhere close to €0.07 per word in the local market for high-profile, highly specialised legal translation. Well, €0.20 is doable if you bill it as legal work (perhaps even 0.40 for a senior associate translating 500 words per hour), but you can't do that if you're a full-time translator, even a lawyer-translator. Subjectively, to me, €0.07 looks like a good rate, not that I would be happy to allow a UK or EU agency to get away with paying that. Right now, I charge about 0.10 to avoid profiting excessively from price differences.
While Łukasz makes an exceedingly relevant point about how to survive as a translator, it still remains true that rates are one part of what will enable take-off. I don't believe that Matt has based his suggested rate on anything but a sound assessment of what he could live on and how as , anything else would be insulting.
You can live more easily on 0.07 and a full calendar of work than 0.12 and 3-4 jobs a month. Say:
750 words per hour
160 hours per month
120,000 words per month
* 0.07 = 8,400 euro per month or am I maths-challenged?
Even if one's a new translator, slow typist, not completely fluent in the languages, translates difficult texts and needs to research a lot, that's still 2800 for one standard page per hour, 160 hours per month. You can live rather comfortably on that anywhere in the EU.
Siegfried Armbruster wrote: Sure, I understand quite well what you are saying and I agree with you. Mark Benson wrote:
Please understand that the "generalist with specialization" high quality translation market is a buyer's market more than it is a seller's market. The point is that prices tend to fall in a buyer's market. This is just a fact and sure every translator has the right to his/her own business decisions. If a translator wants to serve a buyer's market, fine with me.
Look, Siegfried, I'm a rookie next to you, so I probably shouldn't be talking, but are you sure you aren't looking at things through the perspective of the highly specialised medical translation market? Those guys get to charge what they want even here, and they can probably quote something along the lines of €500 up front or I'm not getting up from bed.
By contrast, if I tried to charge, say €0.10 per word in Poland even for the most advanced or exotic of high court opinions or the snazziest of legal marketing, I'd probably go hungry or go bankrupt on mandatory insurance charges. I can make people fork out more than they want to be forking out, sure, even double what some other legal translators charge, but there are limits. If you don't have savings to fall back on, your wiggling room is much less, and you just have to budge a little.
Same way, if somebody comes up with a 14th century nobility grant from the HRE chancery or some other nobiliary law from renaissance Poland, I can quote a bunch. I could probably quote all I wanted if they had the money. But in most cases they don't, which means they're paying much more than they're comfortable with paying, and I'm charging much less than I'd be comfortable with charging. At some point, the client just can't afford it. Probably not so much of a problem with big pharma.
[Edited at 2013-06-05 13:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-05 13:22 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-05 13:27 GMT]
| | | | | Quoique l'on fasse.... | Jun 5, 2013 |
I recently lost two major clients due to outsourcing and for the first time in many years again find myself in the situation of having to look for new sources of work. As I live in the Syracuse area, I visited ProZ headquarters (a wonderful experience, as I have been using this site for many years) and got some tips from the staff. Do everything you can, follow all the great advice of all your colleagues on this site, but don't expect immediate results. Agencies will come to you only when they h... See more I recently lost two major clients due to outsourcing and for the first time in many years again find myself in the situation of having to look for new sources of work. As I live in the Syracuse area, I visited ProZ headquarters (a wonderful experience, as I have been using this site for many years) and got some tips from the staff. Do everything you can, follow all the great advice of all your colleagues on this site, but don't expect immediate results. Agencies will come to you only when they have a need for your services. Like all things in life, you have to sow your seed and wait for it to germinate. I know this is not what you want to hear, as frankly I am in the same position, but there is nothing you can do to change these dynamics. Je te souhaite bonne chance. Quoique l'on fasse, le soleil se couchera ce soir et se levera demain matin. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | There is no case "Matt vs. Siegfried" | Jun 5, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Well, that reminds me of an article I've read recently about Aquinas's view of commerce vs modern capitalism. .....
Hence, it's really hard to nail down any sort of precise actual value of translation.
Sorry, to much theory for me. A very successful business man I know, who did not make high school when he was young was asked how he could be so successful without any relevant education, he answered "I can count".
This is about the level of business theory I am following.
In this case, "Matt vs. Siegfried", Matt's rates are absurdly low. Where Matt is faced with the market as a whole, and in particular the kind of work he would be able to do on it, the rates aren't absurd at all.
I don't understand the statement above. But there is no case "Matt vs. Siegfried". Matt wondered why he only gets low paid jobs, and I answered him that I would not offer him a job at all
a) We consider applications with the rates you are asking as completely unacceptable - much too low, a sure sign for problems.
b) Your profile has no content that will in any way convince me to give you a job, in fact it has no content.
Interesting enough the following discussion only concentrates on the rate issue. We would not give any job to anybody with an empty profile, independent of the rates he/she charges.
...but are you sure you aren't looking at things through the perspective of the highly specialised medical translation market? Those guys get to charge what they want even here, and they can probably quote something along the lines of €500 up front or I'm not getting up from bed.
By contrast, if I tried to charge, say €0.10 per word in Poland even for the most advanced or exotic of high court opinions or the snazziest of legal marketing, I'd probably go hungry or go bankrupt on mandatory insurance charges. I can make people fork out more than they want to be forking out, sure, even double what some other legal translators charge, but there are limits.
We did not talk about the market in Poland, but I can tell you that medical translators in the UK, Germany, Switzerland and France charge less than specialized legal or financial translators in these countries.
...Probably not so much of a problem with big pharma.
Big pharma is in the hands of (trans)perfect (mo)raving lions, who pay peanuts and don't care about quality. Fortunately the market for pharma and medical translations is much bigger.
[Edited at 2013-06-05 14:15 GMT]
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