Formatting a finished project - feedback needed Thread poster: GRI BUONGIORNE
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GRI BUONGIORNE 
United States
Local time: 16:37
English to Spanish
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Hello,
This might seems like a "dumb" question...bear with me
I am not quite certain about the following:
Does the finished project have to be "identical" in "look" as the original?
Do I have to include photos, images, logos?
If so, that means that I am not only doing a translation of the words but also re publishing the whole project, right?
One has to have MORE than just the language skill for that.
Am ... See more Hello,
This might seems like a "dumb" question...bear with me
I am not quite certain about the following:
Does the finished project have to be "identical" in "look" as the original?
Do I have to include photos, images, logos?
If so, that means that I am not only doing a translation of the words but also re publishing the whole project, right?
One has to have MORE than just the language skill for that.
Am I correct in assuming that everybody DOES, have these computer skills, ie. Adobe/Photoshop, PowerPoint, etc....
I am aware that some of the CAT tools help with all this, but I am using a Mac and I can't always change the document into a format that includes all the other non-text stuff.
I was under the impression that I am only required to translate TEXT and that somebody else does all the other stuff to the finished project.
What do you all do to a project that is not just text?
What do you think?
Thanks for the input.
gri (Alaska) ▲ Collapse
| | | | LEXpert
United States
Local time: 19:37
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
| At least basic formatting | Feb 15, 2013 |
IME, unless otherwise specified, most agencies expect "basic formatting" from the translator, at least for letters, reports, and similar documents. Things that are bold/underlined/italic/centered/right-justified in the original should be the same in the translation. Relative font sizes (e.g., a title that is noticeably larger than other text), should also be made larger in the target. In short, the basic format should resemble the original, at least to extent that it is possible for someone with... See more IME, unless otherwise specified, most agencies expect "basic formatting" from the translator, at least for letters, reports, and similar documents. Things that are bold/underlined/italic/centered/right-justified in the original should be the same in the translation. Relative font sizes (e.g., a title that is noticeably larger than other text), should also be made larger in the target. In short, the basic format should resemble the original, at least to extent that it is possible for someone with no knowledge of the source language to match up the respective sections of the translation visually.
Normally, logos, signatures, emblems and similar elements don't need to be copied in, but it is sufficient to indicate the name of the element in square brackets: [logo], [signature], [seal:] etc. If the element has textual content, such as a seal, I would translate that: "City of xxxxx, Bureau of Vital Statistics", for example.
IME, it is uncommon to be asked to replicate more complex formatting, such as multi-column formats (for journal articles, e.g.), but it can happen. Typically, I am asked to copy in charts and images from the source and to translate any captions or legends (text boxes work best for these).
I hope that helps. Again, this is just based on my typical experiences. Some customers will have specific requirements, generally outlined in the style guide or PO. These may actually include avoiding any complex formatting, because they prefer their in-house DTP staff to handle that, and your own attempts would do more harm than good
[Edited at 2013-02-15 01:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 08:37
Chinese to English
| PLEASE DON'T SHOUT | Feb 15, 2013 |
Formatting is a negotiation, every time. If you have a heavily formatted document, you have to produce something that makes it clear to the client exactly what corresponds to what. But like you, most of us don't have the DTP skills do actually reproduce the format.
Make sure you understand what the client wants in advance, and make it clear if you can't offer that service. And avoid ppt files like the plague.
| | | | | Mac en CafeTran | Feb 15, 2013 |
S GRISELDA H BUONGIORNE wrote:
I am using a Mac
And so am I.
Most clients (including agencies) do expect a translation that is identical to the original one as far as lay-out is concerned. There are in general no problems using a Mac for that. There are also heaps of CAT tools for the Mac, from free (OmegaT), via cheap (€ 80 for CafeTran, which I use), to rather expensive. An overview of CAT tools for all platforms:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2184204/Computer-assisted%20translation%20-%20Wikipedia,%20the%20free%20encyclopedia.webarchive
I'm afraid you don't have a valid excuse in this matter…
Cheers,
Hans
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cmmlws
India
Local time: 06:07
French to English
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| Formatting is an additional service | Feb 15, 2013 |
If the formatting is complex and you think you will end up wasting a lot of time on it then you can surely ask for additional payment. That's really normal things to do.
But yes I agree with @Rudolf too that most clients expect you to do basic formatting for them.
The other way to go about doing this is to set the format ready before translation and then work on it.... if you really think that the client is important and you have to give the translation back in the ori... See more If the formatting is complex and you think you will end up wasting a lot of time on it then you can surely ask for additional payment. That's really normal things to do.
But yes I agree with @Rudolf too that most clients expect you to do basic formatting for them.
The other way to go about doing this is to set the format ready before translation and then work on it.... if you really think that the client is important and you have to give the translation back in the original format. ▲ Collapse
| | | | 564354352 (X)
Denmark
Local time: 02:37
Danish to English
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| You decide what you will do at the agreed price | Feb 15, 2013 |
I agree with Phil except for the 'avoid ppt files like the plague'. All the Office programs are basic programs that any translator should be able to work in.
But apart from that, my approach would always be to ask for an editable file, e.g. a Word file instead of a PDF file, stating that this will speed up the translation process and keep the price down. However, if the client is unable to supply that and wants a final document that looks more or less identical to the file he/she se... See more I agree with Phil except for the 'avoid ppt files like the plague'. All the Office programs are basic programs that any translator should be able to work in.
But apart from that, my approach would always be to ask for an editable file, e.g. a Word file instead of a PDF file, stating that this will speed up the translation process and keep the price down. However, if the client is unable to supply that and wants a final document that looks more or less identical to the file he/she sends you, you should charge extra for that. Basic formatting skills are just part of the translator's toolbox. Use of InDesign, PhotoShop and PaintShop is not. Those are specialist tools, which you can choose to work with or not.
I always make sure to tell the client how I can present the translated document, e.g. text in uneditable figures/images will be submitted in a separate Word file in table format indicating the source text and the target text side by side so that the client can insert the text into the images himself. Tables within a text, will be set up in a simple Word format for the client to edit if he so wishes.
The important thing is simply to agree in advance what you can do or what you are willing to do. I don't think that you will get very far with the "I was under the impression that I am only required to translate TEXT and that somebody else does all the other stuff to the finished project" approach. This may work with agencies that have DTP staff, but not with smaller (end) clients. There are no rules about what translators do or don't do to meet client requirements, it's all a question of what kind of service you want to offer.
[Edited at 2013-02-15 15:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's up to you | Feb 15, 2013 |
There are no rules about what translators do or don't do to meet client requirements, it's all a question of what kind of service you want to offer.
I agree with the above and also with Rudolf's comments.
It all comes down to a negotiation in the end. I have had really complex documents before provided in .pdf form (which a CAT tool generally can't handle), that I can tell will require time to format and in these cases, I will ask the client if they just want me to reproduce the text. If so, fine and if not, I explain that I estimate about one hours' (or whatever I estimate) worth of formatting time charged at my hourly rate on top of the translation rate.
This will either lead them to suddenly decide that it's OK just to reproduce the text, or to accept a small extra payment. They also have the option of declining your services of course but if the only other option is using up your time for free, this isn't such a bad thing.
The crux is that yes, certain formatting knowledge is required because that's part of your business and the service that your business ought to provide but this shouldn't lead to your having to deal with particularly tricky document formatting for free.
| | | | LEXpert
United States
Local time: 19:37
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
| On Powerpoints | Feb 15, 2013 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
I agree with Phil except for the 'avoid ppt files like the plague'. All the Office programs are basic programs that any translator should be able to work in.
Even though most major CAT tools handle PowerPoint files easily, the text boxes, leader lines, and other features are generally sized to the source text. If the target is longer, this can throw off the alignment of elements on the slide and require additional time to fix. Personally, I haven't had too much trouble with this, though - as long as (like with subtitles) you keep it in mind when translating. There may also be dead text in the ppt file that could require much time to reproduce, or embedded charts that might not be captured the word counting software. The ultimate nightmare would be a completely dead pdf that needs to be recreated with formatting. It would take a lot of money to get me to go near that one...
Still, a simple, not-too-fancy Powerpoint file shouldn't really cause any difficulties, though I imagine this might be considerably different for translators working into different writing systems (right>left, Asian to non-Asian languages, etc.
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| Further on PPT | Feb 15, 2013 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote: Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
I agree with Phil except for the 'avoid ppt files like the plague'. All the Office programs are basic programs that any translator should be able to work in.
Even though most major CAT tools handle PowerPoint files easily, the text boxes, leader lines, and other features are generally sized to the source text. If the target is longer, this can throw off the alignment of elements on the slide and require additional time to fix. Personally, I haven't had too much trouble with this, though - as long as (like with subtitles) you keep it in mind when translating. There may also be dead text in the ppt file that could require much time to reproduce, or embedded charts that might not be captured the word counting software. The ultimate nightmare would be a completely dead pdf that needs to be recreated with formatting. It would take a lot of money to get me to go near that one... Still, a simple, not-too-fancy Powerpoint file shouldn't really cause any difficulties, though I imagine this might be considerably different for translators working into different writing systems (right>left, Asian to non-Asian languages, etc.
There is a risk factor in every PPT file: its creator. Few people build presentations adequate for translation. Actually spectators cannot see how the presentation was built, the nuts & bolts behind it, so it usually looks neat.
Some people write each bullet as a separate item. Then, a multi-line bullet may comprise a series of separate items, with a random number of lines in each. Of course, this will drive a CAT tool crazy or useless to translate. One option, if you already have a good TM for the job, is to splice the segment fragments together before translating. This may involve a lot of work, and yet, the layout will have to be checked/fixed afterwards. Then there is text within boxes where the creator used Enter at the end of each line, again shattering each segment into pieces for the CAT tool. And still, when "bolt" (EN) becomes "parafuso" (PT), and that text is left-aligned, not centered where it should be, something will have to be done after translation too. Of course, the list doesn't end here, this is just a few of the highlights.
I've had a client who told me, Just translate it, don't bother about formatting. My secretary is a PPT whiz, she'll fix it in no time. She often does it to the junk we get from WHQ. Other clients ask me to get it neat and tidy, because they'll be using whatever I deliver for their actual presentation.
So I developed a general policy: an optional 30% surcharge on the translation cost for me to tidy up the entire PPT. This should be fair, as the work involved is proportional to the quantity of text. If the client has someone who can fix it, or if they trust the skills of who created that presentation, I'll deliver the PPT simply translated, as-is. Of course, if they ask me to fix it, and there was nothing (or very little) to be fixed, I'll waive the surcharge. This arrangement has worked fine so far.
| | | | Jenn Mercer
United States
Local time: 20:37
Member (2009)
French to English
| Use a CAT tool already | Feb 16, 2013 |
Trados and most other CAT tools worth their cost will pick up the images and drop them back into the finished document without a scratch. Fonts, sizes, styles, etc are preserved by the "tags" that many who avoid CAT tools like to complain about. Occasionally there is some minor tweaking required, but that can be easily done along with the final proofreading of the translation. If your Mac cannot run the CAT tool you desire, run it in a Windows partition or get a PC.
As for clients'... See more Trados and most other CAT tools worth their cost will pick up the images and drop them back into the finished document without a scratch. Fonts, sizes, styles, etc are preserved by the "tags" that many who avoid CAT tools like to complain about. Occasionally there is some minor tweaking required, but that can be easily done along with the final proofreading of the translation. If your Mac cannot run the CAT tool you desire, run it in a Windows partition or get a PC.
As for clients' expectations, I find that if you can reproduce 95% of the original format, they understand if you need to tweak a font size or adjust a table in order to get everything to fit. If you are closer to the 80-90% mark, you can ask the client about any specific issues. ▲ Collapse
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