| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Off topic: Beginner’s luck ??? Thread poster: Juliano Martins
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| Don't be so harsh... | Jul 30, 2008 |
I'm a little bit surprised with the replies on Juliano. I didn't expect such a closed behaviour on the translator's world.
I'm his friend, I don't translate and don't care much for it, for I think that you never can FULLY understand something that have been translated. Reading the original is the way to go, either because the translator has 1000 ways of saying the same text, or maybe because the language itself cointains subtle aspects that can only be understood in the language co... See more I'm a little bit surprised with the replies on Juliano. I didn't expect such a closed behaviour on the translator's world.
I'm his friend, I don't translate and don't care much for it, for I think that you never can FULLY understand something that have been translated. Reading the original is the way to go, either because the translator has 1000 ways of saying the same text, or maybe because the language itself cointains subtle aspects that can only be understood in the language context. You pick.
Nevertheless, when Juliano sent me the link to this forum's thread, I thougth I'd see a lot of nice words, because, at least, he's very brave to do enter your realm. Of course you guys want your job to be 'seen as a professional thing, not as an hobby'. But I tell you what, let me diverge a little bit to see if you get my point.
I work with computers, just like Juliano. I did Computer Science, like he did, but I didn't graduated. I left my CS course and now I'm doing Economics. But, has I said, I work with computers. Does that means that I can't work with computers anymore? Working with me, there are some guys who've finished CS. Do they fell smaller just because I, 'an amateur', can work on 'their field'? I don't think so.
Medics and lawyers are completly different professions. There's no point on comparing those professions with translating. They have several responsabilities which are innerent of the job, unlikely any other. For example, just because I did Economics in Havard doesn't mean that I'll run a bussiness better than a man who didn't even went to the high school. It's not reckless to run a $100 million a year company without a degree, if I can do it and if I'm bringing the expected return. But if I'm not a medic and try to do a surgery, now I'm being reckless.
Juliano is trying to learn while doing, and I think he'll be a professional in no time.
For the guy who is blabling about november, september... does that matter? I know Juliano and I know everything he said is truth. Funny what's happening this times. People are trying to be smart and say 'a-ha! got you', but they're just being silly with those attitudes. Stick with facts? Everything he said is a fact, and if you don't believe it... it will continue a fact as well.
Regards,
Bruno Saboia
PS: And oh, sorry about my english, I'm brazilian ▲ Collapse
| | | | NecdetB 
Türkiye
Local time: 00:05
German to Turkish
+ ...
Reading your posts, one day I'll get there. But until then, I will repeat this: pleasure is reading your posts!
| | | | | Reference material | Jul 30, 2008 |
Well, I mostly translate into French, so my French reference material is a bit less dusty. I use and highly recommend Le Ramat de la typographie by Aurel Ramat - to me, it is the bible of French typography. I don't think it needs much publicity, as it seems to me that it is the most popular and most respected typography resource for French. Not only is it very complete and well written, it is also well organized and full of witty remarks. Even as plain reading material, it is a lot of goo... See more Well, I mostly translate into French, so my French reference material is a bit less dusty. I use and highly recommend Le Ramat de la typographie by Aurel Ramat - to me, it is the bible of French typography. I don't think it needs much publicity, as it seems to me that it is the most popular and most respected typography resource for French. Not only is it very complete and well written, it is also well organized and full of witty remarks. Even as plain reading material, it is a lot of good fun.
As for English, The Writer's Handbook by Barry Turner is probably one of the best reference books for anyone translating, editing, reviewing or proofreading. I like my Little, Brown Compact Handbook, but you can also look into The Oxford Style Manual. It is also very complete.
However, please note that by searching the Web, you will come across lots of good resources available for download free. Many companies and publishers have their own style guides (especially in the IT industry - Apple, IBM, etc.) and they make them available at no cost. Hint: most of these are available as PDF documents, so if you want to get good search results right away, specify that you want PDF documents in your search query.
I would also be interested in knowing what others use. Feel free to add them here - or to start a thread on this topic and invite me. ▲ Collapse
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Well, I mostly translate into French, so my French reference material is a bit less dusty. I use and highly recommend Le Ramat de la typographie by Aurel Ramat - to me, it is the bible of French typography. I don't think it needs much publicity, as it seems to me that it is the most popular and most respected typography resource for French. Not only is it very complete and well written, it is also well organized and full of witty remarks. Even as plain reading material, it is a lot of good fun.
As for English, The Writer's Handbook by Barry Turner is probably one of the best reference books for anyone translating, editing, reviewing or proofreading. I like my Little, Brown Compact Handbook, but you can also look into The Oxford Style Manual. It is also very complete.
However, please note that by searching the Web, you will come across lots of good resources available for download free. Many companies and publishers have their own style guides (especially in the IT industry - Apple, IBM, etc.) and they make them available at no cost. Hint: most of these are available as PDF documents, so if you want to get good search results right away, specify that you want PDF documents in your search query.
I would also be interested in knowing what others use. Feel free to add them here - or to start a thread on this topic and invite me.
Thanks a lot, Viktoria!
Indeed there are hundreds (thousands) of those guides, including of course, customer-specific ones so the input of some one who has both the interest and the expertiese is really useful to sort out priorities when looking out for one...
And, yes, it would be a good idea to start a thread on this subject.
Daniel
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 23:05
Spanish to English
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| a large component of translation is attitude | Jul 30, 2008 |
I'm always impressed with Victoria's responses and impressed at the quality of the comments -- also amazed at their length, I have to say:-)
I also feel I have to applaud Katarzyna Altma for her contribution.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
2. If you really want to translate, find out if you have the talent for it to start with. This is something no-one has mentioned so far. What makes any of us think that Juliano would make a good translator, whether he takes language courses and/or translation studies or not? I've reviewed the work of people who have been translating for a much longer time than I have, and trust me, many of these people will NEVER be good translators (I mean, people who can provide translations of sufficient quality), even though they have degrees in translation, translate exclusively into their native language and are very, very passionate about translating.
Attitude! Just compare Juliano's with that of the other self-declared " newbie" who contributed to this forum! Who of the two would you employ to do a job? Which of the two, in the end, is going to be high maintenance? Juliano seems to have a lot of what it takes to make a good translator in the LONG term, except he seems to lack a certain grasp of the real world and a certain sensitivity to what it take to do a job, not to mention a certain humility (so many languages, so little time...). The mark of a good translator is being conscious of what THEY DO NOT know. After all, we spend all of our time trying to transmit the words/ideas of others to another langauge, and, in that sense, we really need to be both humble to begin with but also assertive as required, and the latter skill can only be acquired with experience (that is, once you've translated hundreds of case reports in emergency medicine, only then are you in a position to make authoritative suggestions to the author...)
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
3. Do NOT believe that passion can sit in for knowledge. When you tell your client that your translation may not be of professional quality, you really shouldn't be translating in the first place. In other words, there should be no telling your client that you are not entirely professional. At that stage, you shouldn't be translating for money - you should be doing translation exercises on your own. (...) When you say that you may not be professional but you are passionate, you make me want to scream
Can't agree more. There is lots of evidence of Juliano's passion, or refreshing honesty -- or dare I say it "innocence" -- which can, to an extent, end up being dangerously translated into a certain kind of "I know it all" attitude -- unlike that of other newbies (like the other "newbie" contributor here). But as I pointed out recently, his indiscretion is disturbing. I would NOT be at all happy to see my agency referred to in the indiscrete terms he has referred to it, above all, as his version of events is entirely his. This indiscretion extends to what makes Victoria scream, and operators lose their fingers ... all in all, I'd far prefer to employ Katarzyna Altman.
[/quote]
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
(...) To sum it up, you need to be excellent at Portuguese before even thinking about translation. (...) Practice on your own, not on genuine translation projects.
(...) Passion, love of languages and wanting to make serious money only come after that. If you can't be professional, just don't touch it.
Well, here we go again, pointing out that translating into one's own native langauge is a prerequisite (allowing for exceptions), and, it's not so much an issue of being a novice - we all have been novices - it's more about recognizing and acknowledging what it takes to translate (not just knowing 2, 3, 4 languages). Sadly, that's what translation is equated to...
[Edited at 2008-07-30 21:52]
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 23:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
| OUR expectations? | Jul 30, 2008 |
Juliano Martins wrote:
I had some doubts if I had done the right thing posting this topic. In the end I’m happy because I’m getting so much help from you people, even from the wet blankets. There are lot of valuable suggestions in here. I hope to fulfill your expectations soon.
I’d like to thank Viktoria for her long post. Thank you for your time and dedication.
I think you need to focus on CLIENT expectations:-)
| | | | Juliano Martins
Brazil
Local time: 18:05
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | client included | Jul 30, 2008 |
The client expectations too, sure, in the first place.
| | | | | Thank you Tina and Lia | Jul 30, 2008 |
Dear Tina and Lia,
Thank you for your encouraging words. Not to hijack this thread, but it can be very intimidating reading all of information on this site and not feeling... intimidated! Due to my legal concentration, I'm spending my month of vacation searching legal databases and the vast amounts of study just make me realize that I will never know it all, but- darn it!- I will try to know more than less anyway. Thank you for letting me know my attitude is right, that encouragement will... See more Dear Tina and Lia,
Thank you for your encouraging words. Not to hijack this thread, but it can be very intimidating reading all of information on this site and not feeling... intimidated! Due to my legal concentration, I'm spending my month of vacation searching legal databases and the vast amounts of study just make me realize that I will never know it all, but- darn it!- I will try to know more than less anyway. Thank you for letting me know my attitude is right, that encouragement will probably rub off on my study today!
Tina Vonhof wrote: Katarzyna Altman wrote:
I myself would not feel up to taking on such vast amounts of work as a complete beginner in the translation business. I am halfway through my Master in Legal Translation (thank goodness for summer break, though it is spent reading laws and studying) and I cannot say I would feel extremely confident taking on a 10,000 word contract, no matter what the time frame would be. I guess it would be an ego boost to be offered such volumes of work so fast, but my gut instinct would be to take it slow and to build up one's capabilities.
As for translating into your non native languages, I would be too hesitant to do that; even with two native languages I only plan to translate into English, with the exception of eventually going between the two native ones.
Just a fellow newbie's point of view.
Katarzyna, good for you that you are taking it slow and preparing yourself thoroughly. You are doing everything right and I expect you will be a very good and successful translator. You are the kind of person who should be encouraged - good luck!
[Edited at 2008-07-30 22:08]
Lia Fail wrote:
I'm always impressed with Victoria's responses and impressed at the quality of the comments -- also amazed at their length, I have to say:-)
I also feel I have to applaud Katarzyna Altma for her contribution.
[Edited at 2008-07-30 22:12] ▲ Collapse
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Juliana Brown
Israel
Local time: 17:05
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
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| Precise, beautifully humbling and a wonderful reminder. | Jul 30, 2008 |
Viktoria said:
Take a foreign-language text you like and translate it, without ever looking at the existing translation into your native language. Once you are done translating, reviewing, proofreading and polishing your translation, compare it to the existing translation. It is a humbling exercise. I have done this many times, just to see where I stand, and even after all this time, I end up telling myself that I still have much to learn. It is a great learning experience.
... See more Viktoria said:
Take a foreign-language text you like and translate it, without ever looking at the existing translation into your native language. Once you are done translating, reviewing, proofreading and polishing your translation, compare it to the existing translation. It is a humbling exercise. I have done this many times, just to see where I stand, and even after all this time, I end up telling myself that I still have much to learn. It is a great learning experience.
I could not agree more. This same exercise was suggested to me by a colleague many years ago as a good way to improve quality and to keep one's mind open and hungry. I still use it a couple of times a year to remind myself not only that one can do better, but also that there are always OPTIONS in language, and a good translator chooses among many good ones, rather than stabbing away at a dictionary and grabbing the first available word.
Beyond the love of language and of the soud of a beautifully translated phrase (and some of us get a bit rapturous)a truly professional translator is passionately professional.
BTW Viktoria, I loved your comment about the rotor blade. Too often we forget that our work goes out into the real world. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Markets and marketing | Jul 30, 2008 |
lai an wrote: Any other Brazilians experiencing this? Maybe Proz works better in Latin America recently.
Juliano
More Latin Americans studying overseas, more demand for Brazilian texts (maybe). And more competition. Does the Portuguese Forum discuss the market. Ours does. Do Portuguese -> X if that is where the demand is. See this: http://www.proz.com/forum/getting_established/111389-who_am_i_russian_english.html
Credentials:
Proficiency tests: Try IELTS (for English) or UN exams - they're recognised in Latin America I think. TOEFL/TOEIC (for English) recognised in NE Asia. Translators' exams eg NAATI (Australia) or ATA (USA).
Networks:
translators' association，one of the Proz Conferences. local agencies, professional networks, tourism and trade.
Best wishes
Lesley
[Edited at 2008-07-31 02:52]
| | | | Oleg Rudavin
Ukraine
Local time: 00:05
Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
| Two aspects of the same story | Jul 31, 2008 |
Interesting thread indeed, with a few obvious conclusions, and one of the most frightening of them is as follows: the industry on the whole has no established standards - (no ill will agains Juliano!) a desperate client hiring a person whose credentials include being a Brazilian, availability, and ability to speak French for translation from a non-native language into a non-native language within seconds. Far from best practices; rather, the opposite.
Still, it's quite posib... See more Interesting thread indeed, with a few obvious conclusions, and one of the most frightening of them is as follows: the industry on the whole has no established standards - (no ill will agains Juliano!) a desperate client hiring a person whose credentials include being a Brazilian, availability, and ability to speak French for translation from a non-native language into a non-native language within seconds. Far from best practices; rather, the opposite.
Still, it's quite posible, especially when the client knows for sure that the translation will hardly ever be readAngela Arnone wrote: Are we selling tons of potatoes at the market, or are we selling communication and culture?
Sometimes even worse than that: we sell (or rather, translate) sheer crap!
A few years ago I was involved in the translation of a large (hundreds of pages) project. The project itself was financed from a generous grant and launched to study certain fields of UA economy. After a few months I withdrew from it. As I learned later, the sponsors expected to receive a few reports describing dirrefent, quite specific aspects, and it had been agreed that reports would be 40 to 80 pages each. the documents I had to translate conrained 75-80 pages, but the informative part could be compressed to 3-5, somethimes 2 pages, the rest being "you wanted 80? here you are, 80 typed pages, exactly what you paid for" I just couldn't stand the allergy of it - translating somthing absolutely meaningless! I lost a substantial part of my income but saved my sanity
That brings in the distinction: translation and freelancing.
If viewed as a process, transaltion is a kind of prooduction process, with all our hardware, CAT tools, knowledge and skills as 'machinery', source text as the raw material, and target text as the product. The quality of the final product will depend on all of it - the quality of the source, translator's professionalism and knowledge of the languages (that's why we argue so much about native/non-native translation), QA (if any) and a lot of other parameters. Any single substandard parameter may result in substandard final product.
In this context, Juliano had all chances (I'm not saying he did!) to deliver a product of inferior quality.
Whether or not the client received exactly what they were looking for we don't know.
Now, freelancing is quite a different cup of tea: it's business and, by definition, a for-profit activity.
I this context, we can only congratulate Juliano on ocasion of his first successful sale!
A good businessperson will be successful irrespective of what they sell and to what buyers - fridges to Eskimos, fur coats in Central Africa... and those who are first and foremost looking for higher profits are and will be doing that: it's the sales that matter, not the product.
The paradox is that those of us who are freelancers will have to sell our own products.
Look around an you'll see all kinds of examples: excellent translators who don't know the ABC's of business; or excellent businesspersons who should not be allowed to be called transaltors at all... The same applies to outsourcers, with revenues vs quality as parameters.
To be successful as a freelance translator, one has to a) be a good translator, and b) be good at business. Otherwise, we'll only have to trust our luck. ▲ Collapse
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Oleg Rudavin wrote:
To be successful as a freelance translator, one has to a) be a good translator, and b) be good at business. Otherwise, we'll only have to trust our luck.
That sums it up nicely - and this also goes for many experienced translators, not just for newbies. For example, I have worked with translators who do excellent work, even sometimes superstandard work, who charge rock-bottom prices. I know for a fact that for the quality they are selling, there is a market willing to pay much more than what they charge. So, what's missing in this picture? A sense of business. Too many of us think that a freelance translator is simply a translator, whereas we really are businesspeople. Most of us are very bad businesspeople, simply because most of us don't realize that we ARE businesspeople.
However, I think that it is very much possible to sell those fridges to people who really need them and who are willing to pay the price, rather than to Eskimos. Especially if they are high quality fridges. That is what I believe I am doing - and I sometimes feel a bit lonely in this, because, beside a few other translators I know who do take care of business and at the same time are selling quality rather than words at a penny a dozen, I can't help but think that there are very few of us dealing with freelance translation that way.
Yes, it is a business. But not all rules of business apply here, because our product is rather unique (can't be sold by the pound, for instance, and can't be branded either). So, demand, for example, should not be as important a factor in the equation as in other types of business. If you are selling quality, if that is what you offer to potential clients, then you can charge what it's worth and people will buy, without ever selling something to someone who doesn't need it, and without ever charging an abusive price for it. This is one of the oldest business models of the Modern World - and it still works just as well as it used to.
If the industry is so saturated and if the demand is seemingly so low (please note, I say seemingly), it is mostly because of bad quality taking over the industry. The problem is not people in Asia who charge much less than the rest of us, it is not the agencies, it is not globalization - those are just logical consequences to the overall lack of quality. If freelancers want to be good businesspeople, I bet the way to go is to make sure you are providing services of the highest quality possible - then you can charge for it and people will pay.
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 14:05
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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lai an wrote:
Juliano
Do Portuguese -> X if that is where the demand is.
| | | | | Indeed, Michele | Aug 1, 2008 |
Some people just don't get it...
| | | | Susan Welsh
United States
Local time: 17:05
Russian to English
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| Is 102 posts some kind of all-time record? | Aug 1, 2008 |
I'm curious. Juliano's post has certainly elicited more responses than anything I've ever noticed while being a ProZ member. Is it an all-time record? Anybody from the staff know?
Susan
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