Ei Roomaakaan päivässä rakennettu! Thread poster: Roland Nienerza
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This means, according to Google Translate as well as to my excellent little text book "Wir lernen Finnisch sprechen" from former East Germany, 1964, "Rom was not built in one day."
In this, the ending "~kaan" seems to denote "was", which would mean that this is kind of an enclitic past tense of the copula "is" - which is normally "oli".
I could not find any reference to this enclitic particle "~kaan" either in the grammar of Eva Buchholz nor in that of Fred Karlsson.... See more This means, according to Google Translate as well as to my excellent little text book "Wir lernen Finnisch sprechen" from former East Germany, 1964, "Rom was not built in one day."
In this, the ending "~kaan" seems to denote "was", which would mean that this is kind of an enclitic past tense of the copula "is" - which is normally "oli".
I could not find any reference to this enclitic particle "~kaan" either in the grammar of Eva Buchholz nor in that of Fred Karlsson.
Would anyone mind to give me a clue how "Roomaakaan" comes about - and why it is not just "Ei Rooma oli päivässä rakennettu!"?
Roland Nienerza ▲ Collapse
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It basically means "either" in this context. Like, "Rome wasn't built in a day either". -kaan and -kin are twins, with -kin having a positive sense of "also" and -kaan having a negative sense. It's in §91 of Karlsson.
The -kaan doesn't have anything to do with the past tense. The past tense comes from the "ei rakennettu"--that past passive participle ("rakennettu") is how you do negative past tense in the passive voice. §71 in Karlsson
And the final thing your example... See more It basically means "either" in this context. Like, "Rome wasn't built in a day either". -kaan and -kin are twins, with -kin having a positive sense of "also" and -kaan having a negative sense. It's in §91 of Karlsson.
The -kaan doesn't have anything to do with the past tense. The past tense comes from the "ei rakennettu"--that past passive participle ("rakennettu") is how you do negative past tense in the passive voice. §71 in Karlsson
And the final thing your example is missing is the partitive case on Rooma. It has to be Roomaa instead of Rooma because you're saying that it was NOT built. Negative objects are always partitive. §33.2.1.
[Edited at 2012-03-16 03:09 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-03-16 03:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 22:18
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Tämä on suomenkielinen foorumi, ystävät! | Mar 16, 2012 |
Hyvä että asia tuli selväksi, mutta eiköhän yritetä täällä kirjoittaa suomeksi? Rohkeutta se tietysti vaatii, mutta oikotietäkään kielen omaksumisessa ole olemassa. Täällä tuhannet viestittävät päivittäin enemmän tai vähemmän huonolla englannillaan. Olkaa meille solidaarisia, te englanninkieliset.
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Thank you, Owen, for answering this nicely.
I had seen the vowel doubling at the end of Rooma - to Roomaa, but thought that this might have been a sort of gradation due to the ending. I had indeed shortly thought of asking about that too - but then did not wish to make to bulky.
All the rest is now also very nice and clear. - The problem is that both, Buchholz and Karlsson, good as they are each in its own way, do not have explicit search indices -in which the endings, ... See more Thank you, Owen, for answering this nicely.
I had seen the vowel doubling at the end of Rooma - to Roomaa, but thought that this might have been a sort of gradation due to the ending. I had indeed shortly thought of asking about that too - but then did not wish to make to bulky.
All the rest is now also very nice and clear. - The problem is that both, Buchholz and Karlsson, good as they are each in its own way, do not have explicit search indices -in which the endings, in this case emphasis particles, would be listed directly. - And as I could not find the ending, I had put just "Roomaakaan" into Google Translate, and that gives, with the ominous Google Translate sense of humour - "Rome was".
Roland Nienerza ▲ Collapse
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Niina Lahokoski
Finland
Local time: 22:18
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
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Removed as irrelevant
[Edited at 2012-03-16 14:19 GMT]
| | | | | Now, this goes somewhat into detail - | Mar 16, 2012 |
Niina Lahokoski wrote:
In fact, Google does not translate "-kaan" as "was" - like Owen said, they have nothing to do with each other. "was" belongs to "was not built", which is the correct translation of "ei rakennettu". Google does not translate "-kaan" at all but omits it. It also seems that the English Google translation is correct.
Sama suomeksi. Google ei itse asiassa käännä "-kaan"-päätettä sanaksi "was". Owen jo totesikin, ettei näillä ole mitään tekemistä toistensa kanssa. "was" kuuluu verbiin "was not built", mikä on oikea käännös verbistä "ei rakennettu". Google ei siis käännä päätettä "-kaan" ollenkaan, vaan jättää sen pois. Google-käännös näyttää vieläpä olevan englanniksi ihan oikein.
[Edited at 2012-03-16 12:31 GMT]
and, at least from my side, all along in English which I like, sure - much as it might infuriate our friend Heinrich.
You got a few things wrong, Niina, because you did not care to read my, admittedly not very important, entries in detail. - I had well said at the beginning of my start posting, that Google Translate, almost as well as my excellent little text book, translates the whole sentence into - slightly broken - En as "Rome was not built in day" or into - also slightly broken - De as "Rom wurde nicht an Tag erbaut". - Where in each case "~kaan" is not heeded.
But as I could not find anything for "-kaan" in my grammars I had put "Roomaakaan", just "Roomaakaan"!!, into Google Translate, and for this Google gives - as I said, with its ominous sense of humour - "Rome was" in En and "Rom war" in De - where the latter is of course just a translation from En.
So, your assertion
Google does not translate "-kaan" at all but omits it.
is only true for the whole sentence. - GT does indeed translate it, wrongly, from "Roomaakaan" as "was" - as you are free to check for yourself. I had not said this clearly enough in the initial post, but mentioned it in my reply to Owen's excellent explanation.
And to be precise. - The Google translation, by omitting the emphatic "~kaan", is exactly not "correct", as you write, but wrong! The Fi sentence renders this proverbial saying correctly, wich is in En "Rome wasn't built in one day either." Or in De "Auch Rom wurde nicht an einem Tag erbaut." And goold old Google Translate did not get that important detail.
Roland Nienerza
[Edited at 2012-03-16 13:58 GMT]
| | | | Niina Lahokoski
Finland
Local time: 22:18
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
Oops, I admit I read your posts a bit hastily and misunderstood you as regards Google translation. Sorry! Finnish is definitely a difficult language for Google translator, and the results are often hilarious.
A funny detail: If you type "Ei Roomaakaan päivässä rakennettu" into Google Translate without punctuation or with an exclamation mark, the resulting translation is correct: "Rome was not built in a day(!)". If you add a full stop, the result is incorrect: "Rome was not built in da... See more Oops, I admit I read your posts a bit hastily and misunderstood you as regards Google translation. Sorry! Finnish is definitely a difficult language for Google translator, and the results are often hilarious.
A funny detail: If you type "Ei Roomaakaan päivässä rakennettu" into Google Translate without punctuation or with an exclamation mark, the resulting translation is correct: "Rome was not built in a day(!)". If you add a full stop, the result is incorrect: "Rome was not built in day."
As far as I have understood, the proverb in its idiomatic English form is "Rome wasn't built in a day" - without "either". However, if Wikipedia is to be believed, the origins of the proverb are French, which makes the English version a translation. I have no knowledge of French, so I cannot make comparisons between these languages - it might well be that in the French version there is a meaning comparable to "either".
Then again, translations rarely are rendered word-for-word, and even less so in the case of proverbs.
"Ranska ei ole minun heiniäni"
"French is not my cup of tea"
[Edited at 2012-03-16 14:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 22:18
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
| Wrong forum? | Mar 16, 2012 |
I hope a moderator will move this into MT-forum or the like.
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| Suomikin kaunis kieli | Mar 16, 2012 |
Roland Nienerza wrote:and, at least from my side, all along in English which I like, sure - much as it might infuriate our friend Heinrich.
Ensin saan pyytää anteeksi siitä ettei suomen taitoni ole paljon Googlen osaamista parempaa...
Asun Aachenissa eli siis hyvin lähellä Alankomaiden ja Belgian rajaa. Se tarkoittaa että joudun usein häpeämään kun maanmieheni ulkomaissa ilman muuta puhuttelevat belgialaisia ja alankomaalaisia saksaksi itsestään selväksi edellyttäen että nämä sekä osaavat että haluavat puhua meidän äidinkieltä. Kyllä he osaavat muttei se tarkoita että haluaisivatkin (tässä esimerkki -kin-variantista) eikä se vaikuta mitään siihen ettei saa hämmästyä jos sellaista kohtelemista koetaan epäkohteliaaksi. Dan zijn we terecht weer de moffen ofschoon we 't niet verstaan omdat moffen principieel geen nederlands kunnen.
Kun esimerkiksi lähden lomalle Puolaan niin osaan ainakin sanoa puolaksi että pahoittelen etten osaa puolan kieltä ja jos se jolle puhun kenties osaa englantia.
But in order not to leave you without some English: Google translates the German proberb "Mit dem Hute in der Hand kommt man durch das ganze Land" into English as follows: "With hat in hand to get through the whole country." Sananlaskun merkitys on kuitenkin "politeness will serve you well". Unohdetaan siis Googlen ja tehdään mieluummin käännöstöitämme itse.
[Bearbeitet am 2012-03-16 15:31 GMT]
| | | | Tarja Braun
Germany
Local time: 21:18
Member (2008)
German to Finnish
+ ...
| Miksi en koskaan oppinut puhumaan hollantia | Mar 19, 2012 |
Matthias Quaschning-Kirsch wrote:
Asun Aachenissa eli siis hyvin lähellä Alankomaiden ja Belgian rajaa. Se tarkoittaa että joudun usein häpeämään kun maanmieheni ulkomaissa ilman muuta puhuttelevat belgialaisia ja alankomaalaisia saksaksi itsestään selväksi edellyttäen että nämä sekä osaavat että haluavat puhua meidän äidinkieltä. Kyllä he osaavat muttei se tarkoita että haluaisivatkin (tässä esimerkki -kin-variantista) eikä se vaikuta mitään siihen ettei saa hämmästyä jos sellaista kohtelemista koetaan epäkohteliaaksi. Dan zijn we terecht weer de moffen ofschoon we 't niet verstaan omdat moffen principieel geen nederlands kunnen.
Kun esimerkiksi lähden lomalle Puolaan niin osaan ainakin sanoa puolaksi että pahoittelen etten osaa puolan kieltä ja jos se jolle puhun kenties osaa englantia.
[Bearbeitet am 2012-03-16 15:31 GMT]
Tällä ei ole mitään tekemistä alkuperäisen aiheen kanssa, mutta ajattelin kertoa anekdoottina. Yliopistolla kävin huvikseni hollannin kielen kursseilla. Kun yritin harjoittaa taitojani Alankomaissa, kaikki osasivat yhtäkkiä saksaa. Ehdin sanoa taksissa vain "Bovenkerkenweg 81", ja taksikuski kääntyi ympäri ja sanoi saksaksi: "Kyllä minä saksaakin osaan."
Olen joka kesä Kreikassa ja olen opetellut kreikkaa sen verran, että pärjään arkipäiväisellä tasolla. Pari vuotta sitten aiheutin raikuvat naurut rannalla, kun selitin eräälle ateenalaiselle tekeväni työkseni metamorfooseja. Tuli valittua väärä sana käännöksille... Eli Googlen kääntäjän tasolla mennään.
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