| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Vlaams en Nederlands in Proz Thread poster: Macià Planas
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Henk Peelen 
Netherlands
Local time: 11:06
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
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SITE LOCALIZER | Historical situation is different | Jan 21, 2008 |
Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
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As already mentioned before, we are all aware of the differences, but the fact remains that our AN/Algemeen Nederlands/Common Dutch/Standard Dutch is the official language for both the Netherlands and Belgium (Flanders), and I resent the denomination 'Flemish' in this context, which is why I'm in favour/favor of Dutch (B)/Dutch(NL).
But if ProZ.com, or anyone else for that matter, wishes to stick to a divide, then it should also be done for a bunch of other languages.
First of all, I think most Dutchmen find "Flemish" much more positive, since it means a succesfull emancipation in 1830. Dutchmen regard the 1648 emancipation from the huge, strong romanic / roman catholic ruled Spanish-Germanic empire much more positive than Belgians do.
Germany / Austria have a different history. Finding an own name for Austrian German after thr decline of the Austrian Hungarian empire could have had a stopping effect for people who did (and DO) like to talk about "foreign provinces"), but I'm not sure. Languages "exported" to the new world also mean a different situation, because their you often find a need to stress historcial ties with the former "mother country".
Writing Language (x) doesn't fully overcome a divide, but masks it. I think both "systems" have their proz and conz. Asking for instance Sarkozy whether he speaks French-French, Merkel whether she speaks German-German, Brown whether he speaks English-English, could render you a disdainful look, whereas asking Balkenende and Verhofstad whether they speak respectively Dutch and Flemish, would in my opinion render a friendly beit somewhat amazed explanation / answer.
Theoretically Dutch (X) looks logical, but in the end Dutch / Flemish leaves room for own interpretation / use. The funny thing is that the debate shows some need to stress own strengths, no matter which discriptional system you favour.
| | | | | Agree completely Evert and Joeri | Jan 21, 2008 |
Joeri Van Liefferinge (King Darling Communications) wrote: Margreet Logmans wrote:
I can easily give a list of words and expressions that are very different in the language spoken and written by Belgians or Dutch people. When reading a text, I can usually tell pretty soon whether the writer was from Belgium or the Netherlands. That doesn't make them separate languages. Regional differences in the use of words do not create a different language, IMHO! Every language has regional influences... Margreet Logmans wrote:
The Taalunie-argument does not impress me as long as dictionaries add notes to indicate that some words and usages of words are 'Belgian' or 'Dutch'. The indication "in Belgium" means that it is not standard Dutch, hence not correct. That is what I have always learned... And that is exactly what I meant when I was talking about *professional* translators: they should be able to avoid that kind of words and expressions! Although I know that that is not always the case... Still, I would like to add this note: I am not against a distinction between "Dutch (NL)/Dutch (BE)" or "Dutch/Flemish". When a reader reads a text, it's better to address him in his own language as much as possible. (The impression "hey, this was written by a Dutch/Flemish writer" harms the perceived quality of a text.) But I don't agree that they are different languages. British and American Englishes are not different languages either. [Bijgewerkt op 2008-01-21 15:43]
When I first moved to Belgium (| already spoke Dutch, learned in the Netherlands), my Flemish neighbour explained the terminology to me: the people are Vlaams and they speak Nederlands.
Yes, there are differences and there are regional differences in both countries too,with regional accents and dialects. But the language is Dutch, just as English is spoken in UK, US, Canada, Australia etc etc. (No, there is no such language as American either).
I also agree that if Proz splits Dutch into 2 versions Dutch (NL) and Dutch (B), the same should be done for German, French, English and other languages that have distinct country-related versions. Or make it mandatory for Askers to tick a box showing which version their text is written in and in which version they want as answer. Naturally there is often no difference at all.
I must say that even as a non-native Dutch speaker, I find myself taking offence at the attitude sometimes shown when people don't understand a Dutch word and they make snide comments that it must be "Vlaams". It's condescending and uncalled for-and often dead wrong in any case, when the term turns out be "Dutch" of both countries. I lived in NL long enough to know this attitude is rather ingrained, but as professional translators, people should refrain from looking down at other people's languages. This goes for all language groups.
| | | | | "It must be Vlaams" | Jan 21, 2008 |
writeaway wrote:
I must say that even as a non-native Dutch speaker, I find myself taking offence at the attitude sometimes shown when people don't understand a Dutch word and they make snide comments that it must be "Vlaams". It's condescending and uncalled for-and often dead wrong in any case, when the term turns out be "Dutch" of both countries. I lived in NL long enough to know this attitude is rather ingrained, but as professional translators, people should refrain from looking down at other people's languages. This goes for all language groups.
Yes, we see this type of dismissive comment quite often on Kudoz in the NL»EN questions. Seems, more than anything else, to be a cliché of those who are at that stage of the game stumped with nothing better to say. Speaks volumes about so-called professional linguists.
Remaining on topic, if there is any distinction it should be consistently applied throughout the site for other languages and, in this particular case, should then be Dutch (NL) and Dutch (B) - not Flemish.
| | | | | Don't lose any jobs by making the distinction too strict | Jan 22, 2008 |
I agree with many of the comments made here by translators who translate from and/or into Dutch/Flemish/Dutch-North/Dutch-South/Dutch NL/Dutch BE etc.
However I would like to comment that if we make too much of a distinction between the regional variants here on Proz, we might lose jobs that could have been ours.
If you make an outsourcer indicate which regional variant he wants the document to be translated into, he m... See more I agree with many of the comments made here by translators who translate from and/or into Dutch/Flemish/Dutch-North/Dutch-South/Dutch NL/Dutch BE etc.
However I would like to comment that if we make too much of a distinction between the regional variants here on Proz, we might lose jobs that could have been ours.
If you make an outsourcer indicate which regional variant he wants the document to be translated into, he might not indicate the correct choice. As said here, many outsourcers don't have a good idea of the distinction between Dutch NL and Dutch BE. I for one am afraid that if outsourcers are given a choice between - for instance- Dutch NL and Dutch BE only, many will just tick "Dutch NL" (because - they think - after all Dutch is the language spoken in Holland) without realising that for many texts, it makes no difference whether it is translated by a translator living in Holland or living in Belgium. Some texts, such as copier manuals for example, can easily be translated by either. Others, such as marketing-related texts, should be done by a translated living in the target market. Let's not make the unknowing outsourcer decide.
Only last week I told a translation agency that I would be happy to translate a company presentation for a Dutch company, but that I thought the client might find my translation too "Flemish-sounding". They thanked me for pointing that out and looked for another translator. I was happy because I knew the client would not have been satisfied with my translation and I would hate to deliver a "bad" result (and I am not saying the text would be bad, the client just would not like the way it sounded). I would prefer if it were the translator who informed the client if they need another variant for the translation of their particular document.
Do please don't make the distinction too strict if you want Proz to use a different approach (and that goes for the other languages with regional variants as well). The outcome might not be what we want. ▲ Collapse
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Youp Kila
Belgium
Local time: 11:06
English to Dutch
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| Next step? Limburgs for Limburg (BE) or Limburg (NL) or Limburg (DE) | Jan 22, 2008 |
Met stijgende verbazing zit ik deze kolommen te lezen. Het is een discussie die pakweg elke 5 jaar de kop op steekt. Laten we wel wezen, er bestaat één taal namelijk het Nederlands. Daar zijn diverse varianten van gaande van Gronings tot en met Limburgs en zelfs Vlaams. En dan heb ik het niet over de officiële dialecten. Maar over Nederlands. Zoals een Groninger andere woorden zal kiezen om zich uit te drukken, zo doet de Vlaming dat ook. Maar het blijft wel Nederlands. Het enige argument dat... See more Met stijgende verbazing zit ik deze kolommen te lezen. Het is een discussie die pakweg elke 5 jaar de kop op steekt. Laten we wel wezen, er bestaat één taal namelijk het Nederlands. Daar zijn diverse varianten van gaande van Gronings tot en met Limburgs en zelfs Vlaams. En dan heb ik het niet over de officiële dialecten. Maar over Nederlands. Zoals een Groninger andere woorden zal kiezen om zich uit te drukken, zo doet de Vlaming dat ook. Maar het blijft wel Nederlands. Het enige argument dat ik geneigd ben te aanvaarden, is de enorme invloed van het Frans op de manier waarop soms dingen gezegd en geschreven worden in dat Vlaams. Daardoor lijkt het soms "anders" te zijn dan Nederlands. Maar terugkijkend op de dertig jaar dat ik als Nederlander in Vlaanderen met taal mijn boterham verdien, durf ik stellen dat die invloed in de komende vijftig jaar verder zal teruglopen.
Wat vooral Nederlanders niet beseffen is dat nog geen honderd jaar geleden officieel in België de stelling werd beleden dat hoger en universitair onderwijs niet in het Nederlands kon en mocht worden gegeven omdat die taal daarvoor de "wetenschappelijke diepgang" niet bezat. (Kard. Mercier). Ondertussen weten we gelukkig beter.
Het lijkt mij dus nuttig om vooral geen onderscheid te maken tussen NL en VL. Dat een vertaling van tijd tot tijd aangepast zal moeten worden omwille van landelijke, wettelijke verschillen lijkt mij vanzelfsprekend. Maar in het algemeen gesproken is goed Nederlands overal gangbaar. Of willen we echt terug naar regionale versies van elke tekst? Laten we dan ook een aparte versie van het Engels maken voor elke Amerikaanse staat apart.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henk Peelen
Netherlands
Local time: 11:06
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | 34 times the same: there's a divide that's no divide | Jan 22, 2008 |
Youp Kila wrote:
Wat vooral Nederlanders niet beseffen is dat nog geen honderd jaar geleden officieel in België de stelling werd beleden dat hoger en universitair onderwijs niet in het Nederlands kon en mocht worden gegeven omdat die taal daarvoor de "wetenschappelijke diepgang" niet bezat. (Kard. Mercier). Ondertussen weten we gelukkig beter.
Het lijkt mij dus nuttig om vooral geen onderscheid te maken tussen NL en VL. Dat een vertaling van tijd tot tijd aangepast zal moeten worden omwille van landelijke, wettelijke verschillen lijkt mij vanzelfsprekend. Maar in het algemeen gesproken is goed Nederlands overal gangbaar. Of willen we echt terug naar regionale versies van elke tekst? Laten we dan ook een aparte versie van het Engels maken voor elke Amerikaanse staat apart....
Actually all 34 contributions hoover around the same problem. We want to support a divide (in whatever form), but pleeeeaaaaase let's hide that divide, because there's absoutely no divide.
In 1568 The Dutch already understood that that Italian garbage problem city is not the only Mediterranen city ruled by the Mafia and that you need an army and proper legislation to stop it. Belgium wants to go around it, but no matter how clever the linguïsts and all others, it should make up it's mind and either fully accept Dutch or declare Flemish the official language. Nobody is too stupid to learn Dutch, but nobody can beat the Dutch.
Actually there is no real Dutch (B). Dutch is Dutch, so simple even a Hollander does understand it from time to time.
[Bijgewerkt op 2008-01-22 14:24]
| | | | Gerard de Noord
France
Local time: 11:06
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| We're here to make money | Jan 23, 2008 |
Linguistically the existence of the word Flemish on this site is bizarre. Evert has pointed this out to the management, and I have too in the past.
On a site where clients can't choose between the Spanish spoken in Spain or in Cuba or Argentina and can't choose between the English spoken in London or Houston they can choose between the Dutch of Breda and the Dutch of Antwerp.
The funny thing is that the current situation works well for most of us. Almost all 'Flemish' n... See more Linguistically the existence of the word Flemish on this site is bizarre. Evert has pointed this out to the management, and I have too in the past.
On a site where clients can't choose between the Spanish spoken in Spain or in Cuba or Argentina and can't choose between the English spoken in London or Houston they can choose between the Dutch of Breda and the Dutch of Antwerp.
The funny thing is that the current situation works well for most of us. Almost all 'Flemish' natives are declared Dutch natives too and translate into both 'languages'. The only native Dutchman I know on this site who translates into 'Flemish' too is Joeri Van Liefferinge, but he has earned the right to call himself 'bilingual'.
When the system would be changed to Dutch (Netherlands), Dutch (Belgium) and Dutch (Surinam), most Dutch speakers from Belgium and Surinam would claim to be able to translate into Dutch (Netherlands) right away. Very few Dutch (Netherlands) speakers would claim to be able to translate into Dutch (Belgium) and/or Dutch (Surinam) too, so de facto nothing would change in our language pairs.
Regards,
Gerard ▲ Collapse
| | | | blomguib (X)
Local time: 06:06
English to Flemish
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| liguistic flexibility | Jan 24, 2008 |
I am not going to repeat what has already been said many times in this thread; the written Dutch language is one language; Flemish is spoken...that's where the differences lie....
Yes there are differences in expressions that are respectively used in NL and in BE....BUT: there is one other HUGE difference; the flemish (because they have been historically forced to do so) have a much greater capacity to "accept" things, expressions in their language, as long as they are grammatically... See more I am not going to repeat what has already been said many times in this thread; the written Dutch language is one language; Flemish is spoken...that's where the differences lie....
Yes there are differences in expressions that are respectively used in NL and in BE....BUT: there is one other HUGE difference; the flemish (because they have been historically forced to do so) have a much greater capacity to "accept" things, expressions in their language, as long as they are grammatically correct....linguistic flexibility, if you want....The Dutch don't. An example: I sat in the train from A'dam to Antwerp a few weeks ago, and there were two university professors (NL) correcting articles (apparently written by people from Belgium). All of a sudden I hear one of them say: "aha....deze schrijft hier: "hij sloeg zijn publiek met verstomming".....ja, dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn"....
Ik erger mij de laatste tijd enorm aan het gemak waarmee Nederlanders (zelfs linguïsten), wanneer ze een woord of een uitdrukking niet kennen, dat gemakshalve afdoen als "dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn". Alsof dat het ondergeschoven kindje is, het dialect dat die 5 miljoen inellectueel achtergestelde medemensen uit het zuiden spreken/schrijven.
Als ik echter kijk naar wat men op taalkundig vlak in de scholen in Nederland presteert (ik weet waarover ik praat; ik heb namelijk spijtig genoeg drie kinderen die in NL op school zitten), en ik vergelijk dat met wat kinderen van dezelfde leeftijd die in België op school zitten, presteren, dan zijn de verschillen ontzettend groot.
Misschien is het nodig dat de scholen in Nederland eens iets gaan doen aan hun algemeen bedroevend lage niveau; misschien dat men dan in NL het Nederlands beter gaat beheersen en minder snel zijn toevlucht zal nemen tot "dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn"...
Oops...just realised that I have been writing in Dutch (or is it Flemish)...my apologies to English users of this thread!
Have to go now; have to continue finishing a Flemish/Dutch text.
And by the way; you'll notice that in my language pairs, Flemish appears...not because I like it, but because that is the way the site is designed....the site uses 2 different words for the same language, and, therefore, I am crossing twice as many boxes when indicating my language pairs
[Edited at 2008-01-24 12:31] ▲ Collapse
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Henk Peelen
Netherlands
Local time: 11:06
Member (2002)
German to Dutch
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SITE LOCALIZER | I feel the Flemish should address that point, not the Dutch | Jan 24, 2008 |
blomguib wrote:
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the written Dutch language is one language; Flemish is spoken...that's where the differences lie....
All of a sudden I hear one of them say: "aha....deze schrijft hier: "hij sloeg zijn publiek met verstomming".....ja, dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn"....
Ik erger mij de laatste tijd enorm aan het gemak waarmee Nederlanders (zelfs linguïsten), wanneer ze een woord of een uitdrukking niet kennen, dat gemakshalve afdoen als "dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn". Alsof dat het ondergeschoven kindje is, het dialect dat die 5 miljoen inellectueel achtergestelde medemensen uit het zuiden spreken/schrijven.
Als ik echter kijk naar wat men op taalkundig vlak in de scholen in Nederland presteert (ik weet waarover ik praat; ik heb namelijk spijtig genoeg drie kinderen die in NL op school zitten), en ik vergelijk dat met wat kinderen van dezelfde leeftijd die in België op school zitten, presteren, dan zijn de verschillen ontzettend groot.
Misschien is het nodig dat de scholen in Nederland eens iets gaan doen aan hun algemeen bedroevend lage niveau; misschien dat men dan in NL het Nederlands beter gaat beheersen en minder snel zijn toevlucht zal nemen tot "dat moet dan wel Vlaams zijn"...
Oops...just realised that I have been writing in Dutch (or is it Flemish)...my apologies to English users of this thread!
...
Eigelijk heeft Youp gelijk. Degene die het onderwerp startte, verstaat Nederlands, dus waarom niet Nederlands? Hartstikke leerzaam voor haar!
Volgens mijn woordenboek Vlaams-Nederlands is "met verstomming geslagen" inderdaad Vlaams (of Belgisch Nederlands of Nederlands (B)).
De twee mede-treinreizigers dachten waarschijnlijk een Nederlandse tekst te lezen, en verbaasden zich dus enorm over deze frase. Op zich terecht.
Dat 0,1% "afwijking" als minderwaardig wordt gezien en bijvoorbeeld 20% als geniaal, krachtig, getuigend van culturele diepgang, zelfbewustzijn en wat dies meer zij, is gewoon zo. Niet leuk!
Daar komt nog bij dat de gemiddelde Nederlanders het succes van "1831" een beetje betwijfelen. Kenmerkend is dat gemiddelde Nederlander redelijk gek is op de zelfstandigheid van Nederland en het koningshuis, in België ziet men hun eigen verworvenheden haast meer als een succes vanwege de "rebellerende uitstraling" ten opzichte van de Hollanders dan als een succes op zich, want België is voor hen een ietwat bonte verzameling van culturele hoogstandjes. Zo'n houding lijkt heel wat, maar ik ben bang dat het uiteindelijke effect is dat men hiermee ongewild meer achting voor de Nederlandse structuur heeft dan de eigen, hetgeen zich weer manifesteert in grotere politieke instabiliteit. Daarom kan die onaardigheid van Nederlanders juist een oogopener zijn. Alle dingen zullen meewerken te goede.
| | | | | I talked to Proz | Jan 24, 2008 |
I sent a message to Proz staff regarding this matter.
I told them it makes no sense to divide Dutch and Catalan in two languages (Flemish and Valencian respectively). I also underlined the fact that I had opened discussions [such as this present one, but also one in the Catalan forum] in which everybody agreed that a more unified denomination would be better.
I specifically proposed to change "Flemish" into "Dutch (Belgium)" and "Valencian" into "Catalan (Valencia)".... See more I sent a message to Proz staff regarding this matter.
I told them it makes no sense to divide Dutch and Catalan in two languages (Flemish and Valencian respectively). I also underlined the fact that I had opened discussions [such as this present one, but also one in the Catalan forum] in which everybody agreed that a more unified denomination would be better.
I specifically proposed to change "Flemish" into "Dutch (Belgium)" and "Valencian" into "Catalan (Valencia)".
However, I searched through Proz and I discovered the criteria which Proz uses to create its language list: it said it is based on the official ISO list of languages.
Thus, if you have a look at this list:
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
You will see that "Flemish" and "Valencian" appear in the list independently, BUT actually they refer to "nl" (Dutch) and "ca" (Catalan) respectively. So this means there is no reason Proz is forced to include them on its list, even if they want to base it on this official ISO list.
I will see what they say [if they reply]. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Talking to ProZ | Jan 24, 2008 |
Macià Falgàs and Joaquim Palau wrote:
I sent a message to Proz staff regarding this matter.
I told them it makes no sense to divide Dutch and Catalan in two languages (Flemish and Valencian respectively). I also underlined the fact that I had opened discussions [such as this present one, but also one in the Catalan forum] in which everybody agreed that a more unified denomination would be better.
I specifically proposed to change "Flemish" into "Dutch (Belgium)" and "Valencian" into "Catalan (Valencia)".
Thanks for this, but you should know that this has already been discussed at length in the Moderators forum with several moderators from other language pairs participating. Despite our objections, we're still stuck with 'Vlaams' (and what have you).
Maybe it'll be changed now.
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Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
Thanks for this, but you should know that this has already been discussed at length in the Moderators forum with several moderators from other language pairs participating. Despite our objections, we're still stuck with 'Vlaams' (and what have you).
Maybe it'll be changed now.
Where exactly has this been discussed? (can you post the link?)
What reasons did they give you to keep it like now?
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| In the Moderators forum | Jan 24, 2008 |
Macià Falgàs and Joaquim Palau wrote: Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
Thanks for this, but you should know that this has already been discussed at length in the Moderators forum with several moderators from other language pairs participating. Despite our objections, we're still stuck with 'Vlaams' (and what have you).
Maybe it'll be changed now.
Where exactly has this been discussed? (can you post the link?) What reasons did they give you to keep it like now?
As stated above: in the Moderators forum. I can't send you any link, as you wouldn't be able to access it.
But no reasons were given, and nothing was changed yet. Actually we discussed it among moderators, not with ProZ.com staff.
Sooner or later a decision will have to be made.
| | | | | I got a reply from Proz | Feb 12, 2008 |
Evert DELOOF-SYS wrote:
But no reasons were given, and nothing was changed yet. Actually we discussed it among moderators, not with ProZ.com staff.
Sooner or later a decision will have to be made.
I got a reply from Proz:
http://www.diccionaris.net/Discussion.pdf
| | | | Gerard de Noord
France
Local time: 11:06
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| I wish you could luck... | Feb 12, 2008 |
It's like talking to a brick wall.
Regards,
Gerard
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