| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Is there a way to autopropagate to confirmed segments? Thread poster: Pavel Tsvetkov
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Selcuk Akyuz 
Türkiye
Local time: 16:30
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Different tools and preferences | Oct 21, 2013 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
In my opinion the problem stems from the difference between confirmed and finished. In Trados when you press control+enter the segment becomes 'confirmed', but if you further edit it, the edits will still be autopropagated to all identical segments, even if they are also 'confirmed'.
And then the translator cries out #;** I wanted to change only one instance because of say, character limitation or context, but this silly tool changes all confirmed segments. Who is the boss, me or this CAT?
In Deja vu x2 the logic is different. Control + Down Arrow makes a segment 'finished', which is obviously a whole different thing.
Finally a smart program, it knows that I am the boss.
In my opinion this is counter productive, as a translator reads through the autopropagated segments and 'confirms' them, but does not want them 'finished' if that would prevent later autopropagation of an edited first identical segment.
Counter productive? No!
Ctrl+Alt+S (filter on source)
Enter (selection mode)
Down Arrow
Ctrl+Shift+F (toggle finished status)
Then make required change (in any of these segments) and Ctrl+Down Arrow
And by the way, why only of the first? What if the segment No 23 of a total of 55 identical 'finished' segments is edited? There must be a way to autopopagate the change both up and down.
See above.
Atril should introduce the idea of confirmation instead of finishing, and changing a confirmed segment should automatically change all of the autopropagated ones.
No, please. Same sentence can sometimes have different translations, due to char lmt, context or bad segmentation caused
by
improper use
of
enter key
in
the
source document.
DVX autopropagates to all identical segments, upwards and downwards, and we "finish" them so that they are not changed if one of the translations is edited intentionally to have a different translation only for that segment. Otherwise, there is no need to "finish" them, just autopropagation is sufficient if you do not want diferent translations for identical segments.
Or, if we use Atril's wording, changing a finished segment must autopropagate the change to all identical finished segments, both up and down.
Just do not "finish" them, leave as autopropagated.
Then build an SQL expression to display finished segments but not autopropagated ones (that is so easy with the Build Expression dialogue).
In that line of thought: is there a way to change the segment status from finished to pending, or get rid of the finished status for all segments in a project after the translation is completed, but before the start of the review stage?
Ctrl+Shift+P (pending)
Select all segments (or first filter and then select all), Ctrl+Shift+P or right click (segment status), or on the toolbar Edit > Segment Status > Pending
| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER | Further Question | Nov 4, 2013 |
Dear Selcuk,
Thank you for your answers.
1. My problem with this setup – or the way I am currently working – is that I do press Ctrl+Down Arrow on every segment I translate, in order to move to the next segment and send the current translated segment to the TM. Incidentally, that also marks the segment as finished.
2. I guess this works perfectly for newly translated segments, but Ctrl+Down Arrow must not be used on autopropagated segments, so that they do not... See more Dear Selcuk,
Thank you for your answers.
1. My problem with this setup – or the way I am currently working – is that I do press Ctrl+Down Arrow on every segment I translate, in order to move to the next segment and send the current translated segment to the TM. Incidentally, that also marks the segment as finished.
2. I guess this works perfectly for newly translated segments, but Ctrl+Down Arrow must not be used on autopropagated segments, so that they do not get locked.
Is that the solution you propose and what combination of keys do you use to navigate, confirm, etc. segments while working on a project at the translation stage?
Kind Regards, ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's not usually a good idea... | Nov 5, 2013 |
... to press ctrl+down and finish *every* segment. It's better to use alt+down to finish the current segment, send it to the TM and jump to the next empty segment, fuzzy match or manual translation. That way, any propagated segments are not finished and will be re-propagated if you go back and make changes to the first finished duplicate segment.
| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER
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Jean Chao
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Chinese
+ ...
| An option to globally and automatically change all confirmed segments? | Dec 19, 2013 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
Dear Selcuk,
Thank you for your answers.
In my opinion the problem stems from the difference between confirmed and finished. In Trados when you press control+enter the segment becomes 'confirmed', but if you further edit it, the edits will still be autopropagated to all identical segments, even if they are also 'confirmed'.
Kind Regards,
PTs
Hi, all,
I found this issue today because the client who insists that I deliver in DVX happened to send me a survey type of source document which has a few repeated sentences. Being a daily MemoQ user, I just assumed DVX has the same behavior of autopropagating the latest confirmed segments to all repeated segments. Fortunately I checked to make sure because I haven't used DVX for a while.
Indeed, DVX gives me the full control of deciding whether I want two repeated segments to have the same translation. This is a nice consideration from DVX, but I'd like to propose to DVX to at least add an option for users who value or need translation consistency more than stylistic variation for repeated text.
Judging from this thread, hopefully we'll see this feature in the coming X3?
Best,
Jean
| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER | Consistency is paramount | Dec 19, 2013 |
Jean@LA,
Indeed, consistency is paramount. Most outsourcers consider variations of this type an error.
I agree that this should be an option, not the default behavior. With this type of behavior Deja vu X2 is currently the only tool of the 'Big 3' that acts like that. It is most inconvenient.
I hope someone can prove me wrong, but I am not an optimist about the incorporation of this option in DVX 3.
K... See more Jean@LA,
Indeed, consistency is paramount. Most outsourcers consider variations of this type an error.
I agree that this should be an option, not the default behavior. With this type of behavior Deja vu X2 is currently the only tool of the 'Big 3' that acts like that. It is most inconvenient.
I hope someone can prove me wrong, but I am not an optimist about the incorporation of this option in DVX 3.
Kind Regards,
PTs
[Edited at 2013-12-19 20:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Selcuk Akyuz
Türkiye
Local time: 16:30
English to Turkish
+ ...
| DVX2 gives you the tools for consistency | Dec 19, 2013 |
Project > Find Duplicate Segments >
Find sets of duplicate source segments with different translations
With DVX2 you can provide consistent translations, they are auto-propagated. You can change a translation later and it is auto-propagated as well (explained above in one of my posts).
But the good thing is that I can have different translations for the same sentence/word as well.
We are still beta-testing DVX3, if you want to see a prev... See more Project > Find Duplicate Segments >
Find sets of duplicate source segments with different translations
With DVX2 you can provide consistent translations, they are auto-propagated. You can change a translation later and it is auto-propagated as well (explained above in one of my posts).
But the good thing is that I can have different translations for the same sentence/word as well.
We are still beta-testing DVX3, if you want to see a preview of it there will be a webinar http://www.atril.com/en/content/webinar-dintroduction-teamserver-gratuit-0
Selcuk ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean Chao
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thanks, Selcuk, maybe I didn't set up DVX2 right | Dec 19, 2013 |
Selcuk Akyuz wrote: Project > Find Duplicate Segments > Find sets of duplicate source segments with different translations With DVX2 you can provide consistent translations, they are auto-propagated. You can change a translation later and it is auto-propagated as well (explained above in one of my posts). But the good thing is that I can have different translations for the same sentence/word as well. We are still beta-testing DVX3, if you want to see a preview of it there will be a webinar http://www.atril.com/en/content/webinar-dintroduction-teamserver-gratuit-0 Selcuk
But I simply could not get the autopropagation to work after I changed the confirmed segment. I couldn't seem to get the filter right either. It just won't propagate to the repeated segments unless I use [F9] or [Shift] [F9].
Could you please briefly explain again what I need to do to get it to work after I finish and confirm the translation but later needs to change it globally?
Thanks.
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Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER | I see your point | Dec 19, 2013 |
I see your point, Selcuk, and I respect your opinion.
It is just that there is no direct automatic 'background' solution, but instead it is more time consuming, it needs manual checking, it is dependent on no light-blue segments being confirmed by mistake in the process of reading the file, etc. (This last thing is completely incomprehensible to former Trados users. Consistency cannot be dependent or whether I pressed Alt+Down Arrow or Ctrl+Down Arrow by 'mistake'.)
W... See more I see your point, Selcuk, and I respect your opinion.
It is just that there is no direct automatic 'background' solution, but instead it is more time consuming, it needs manual checking, it is dependent on no light-blue segments being confirmed by mistake in the process of reading the file, etc. (This last thing is completely incomprehensible to former Trados users. Consistency cannot be dependent or whether I pressed Alt+Down Arrow or Ctrl+Down Arrow by 'mistake'.)
We need a simpler, more straight-forward and either default, or switchable solution like the solution in MemoQ or Trados. It is much easier to edit an instance of consistent translation to a more desirable version (a very rare occurrence in pro translation, unless you only translate artistic texts), than having to check all duplicate segments for consistency, first filtering them, then manually checking, etc.
If implemented, it would make switching to DVX much easier for Trados and MemoQ users.
Kind Regards,
PTs
[Edited at 2013-12-19 21:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-12-19 21:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Selcuk Akyuz
Türkiye
Local time: 16:30
English to Turkish
+ ...
| I really cannot understand the problem | Dec 19, 2013 |
Hi Jean and Pavel,
Auto-propagation is automatic as you know.
But it should be activated:
Under Tools> Options> Environment, click AutoPropagate
or
with the AutoPropagate button at the bottom of DVX2, the fourth one from left
Normally we do not 'Finish' auto-propagated segments, only the first instance is 'Finished' so that if we find a better translation for that segment and change it, new translation is auto-propagated to all id... See more Hi Jean and Pavel,
Auto-propagation is automatic as you know.
But it should be activated:
Under Tools> Options> Environment, click AutoPropagate
or
with the AutoPropagate button at the bottom of DVX2, the fourth one from left
Normally we do not 'Finish' auto-propagated segments, only the first instance is 'Finished' so that if we find a better translation for that segment and change it, new translation is auto-propagated to all identical segments and TM is updated with the new translation.
Segment 1. This is a black cat.
Segment 2. This is a white dog.
Segment 3. This is a black cat.
Segment 4. This is a black cat.
Segment 5. This is a black cat.
Segment 6. This is a white dog.
We translate only segment 1 & 2 above, and they are auto-propagated to other segments. Segments 3, 4, 5 and 6 will be indicated by a blue bar (Exact Propagated)
What happens if I 'Finish' segment 1 & 2 and then change translation of Segment 1.
Segment 1 is auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5 because their status is exact propagated (but not Finished)
But what happens if I 'Finish' all segments and then change translation of Segment 1?
It is not auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5 because they have Finished status.
In that case, first, I have to select segments 3, 4 and 5 and clear their Finished status and then finish Segment 1 by Ctrl+DownArrow. New translation of Segment 1 is auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5. Note that I make changes in the first segment only, not in segments with exact propagated status.
But if I clear Finished status of segments 1, 3, 4 and 5 and then change translation in segment 3 (not segment 1), then new translation is auto-propagated to segments 4 and 5 only. Translation in Segment 1 will NOT be overwritten. Because although we cleared the 'Finished' status in Segment 1, its colour is not blue (segment 1 is not an auto-propagated segment with exact propagated status). In that case you have to clear the translation in segment 1 by ctrl+space (or simply using the delete key) and only after that Ctrl+DownArrow in segment 3. So that translation in segment 3 will be autopropagated to segments 1, 4 and 5.
Hope it was clear even without images or a video.
We have Finished status in DVX2, Confirmed is used in other CAT tools I guess.
Finished status applies to DVX1 and DVX2. In DVX3 we will have ... shh! Please wait for the webinar
[Edited at 2013-12-19 22:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean Chao
United States
Local time: 06:30
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Dear Selcuk, the problem is "I" have to "select" those "finished" segments manually | Dec 20, 2013 |
Selcuk Akyuz wrote:
...
But what happens if I 'Finish' all segments and then change translation of Segment 1?
It is not auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5 because they have Finished status.
In that case, first, I have to select segments 3, 4 and 5 and clear their Finished status and then finish Segment 1 by Ctrl+DownArrow. New translation of Segment 1 is auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5..
...
[Edited at 2013-12-19 22:40 GMT]
It's fine when the document is 1,000 words like I did yesterday, but manually "finding" the "finished" segments and then "unfinish" them one by one is just too a big deal for a 20,000 word HR manual. The chance of producing inconsistent translation quality is just too high.
Thanks for taking the time to educate us non-current DVX users--as a matter of fact, I bought both DVX2 and MemoQ early last year. I truly appreciate your generosity with your time. I understand what involves in working with DVX much more after your patient and detailed explanation. I know what I need to do with this particular new client from now on.
Thanks.
| | | | Selcuk Akyuz
Türkiye
Local time: 16:30
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Filter on Source | Dec 20, 2013 |
Jean@LA wrote: Selcuk Akyuz wrote:
...
But what happens if I 'Finish' all segments and then change translation of Segment 1?
It is not auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5 because they have Finished status.
In that case, first, I have to select segments 3, 4 and 5 and clear their Finished status and then finish Segment 1 by Ctrl+DownArrow. New translation of Segment 1 is auto-propagated to segments 3, 4 and 5..
...
[Edited at 2013-12-19 22:40 GMT] It's fine when the document is 1,000 words like I did yesterday, but manually "finding" the "finished" segments and then "unfinish" them one by one is just too a big deal for a 20,000 word HR manual. The chance of producing inconsistent translation quality is just too high. Thanks for taking the time to educate us non-current DVX users--as a matter of fact, I bought both DVX2 and MemoQ early last year. I truly appreciate your generosity with your time. I understand what involves in working with DVX much more after your patient and detailed explanation. I know what I need to do with this particular new client from now on. Thanks.
Hi Jean,
DVX provides you all the required tools to ensure consistency so please (learn and) use them.
1. Do not Finish auto-propagated segments, leave them blue without the Finished sign.
2. When you decide to change a translation, do not make changes in the auto-propagated segments.
- Bookmark the current segment (Ctrl+F2) (so that you can go back to there after making changes)
- Filter on Source (it has a button in the toolbar but I use Ctrl+Shift+S shortcut for it. You can assign it as well Tools>Customize>Keyboard Category: Filter)
- Go to the first instance and make the required change there.
- Unfilter (again with Ctrl+Shift+S) and go back to the bookmarked segment (press F2) to continue working.
Using shortcuts is easy but if you are using several CAT tools then you are lost in them.
By the way, you can use memoQ or any other CAT tool to translate DVX projects.
Some people prefer to Finish even auto-propagated segments. No problem again.
Just go to Project
Find Duplicate Segments
and select "Find sets of duplicate source segments with different translations"
- in Row Selector (aka Segment Selector) select Duplicate Segments
- Sort Alphabetically (optional), or
- Filter on Source
- same as above (select mode with Enter key, no need to edit manually one by one)
- after making changes, do not forget to go back to all segments view (in Row Selector)
[Edited at 2013-12-20 06:02 GMT]
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Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER
Dear Selcuk,
How do you approach 'yellow'-marked (fuzzy propagated) segments? I know it is a good idea to check them, as some of them are not completely correct, but at the same time 'confirming them' (in the logic of all other CAT tools) is actually 'finishing' them (in Deja vu x2 logic), so all subsequent changes will NOT be automatically propagated to them once they have been 'finished'.
So what is your proposal here?
Kind Regards,
Pavel Tsvetkov
| | | | Selcuk Akyuz
Türkiye
Local time: 16:30
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Fuzzy Propagated Segments | Jan 3, 2014 |
Hi Pavel,
I use row (segment) selector to filter on Fuzzy Propagated Segments, check them and finish.
I "finish" all rows except "Exact Propagated Segments".
Selcuk
| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 16:30
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER
Hi Selcuk,
1. At what point do you do that? While you are translating the file and come across a 'yellow' segment do you check it and not 'finish' it, and then, reaching the end of the whole translation, filter as you say, and take a long look at all the 'yellow' segments and finish them or...?
From what you say it seems that you are skipping (not 'finishing') those segments in the process of initial translation.
2. By saying that you do not finish "Exact P... See more Hi Selcuk,
1. At what point do you do that? While you are translating the file and come across a 'yellow' segment do you check it and not 'finish' it, and then, reaching the end of the whole translation, filter as you say, and take a long look at all the 'yellow' segments and finish them or...?
From what you say it seems that you are skipping (not 'finishing') those segments in the process of initial translation.
2. By saying that you do not finish "Exact Propagated Segments" (light blue) do you mean that you do not finish them until the proofreading/editing stage, or that you do not finish them at all?
Kind Regards, ▲ Collapse
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