| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What, in your opinion, should Atril change to make DejaVu X more attractive to customers? Thread poster: Pavel Tsvetkov
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Herbert Eppel 
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:37
German to English
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| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 19:37
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER | Yes, that may solve all problems - theirs and ours | Jan 29, 2010 |
Olaf Reibedanz wrote:
I think Atril took a good decision to lower the price of their products, but these price cuts should even go further (perhaps 500 EUR for Déjà Vu Professional and 200 EUR for Déjà Vu Standard); they should include the Workgroup version; they should be accompanied by a clear statement as to the company’s overall pricing policy; and they would be a great opportunity for revising that pricing policy.
In particular, I am referring to the fact that Atril should start charging an annual fee for updates and support.
Seconded. They should charge annual fees after the release of the new version, and that will allow them to sell DejaVu X for less - and the Workgroup version as well.
| | | | | Many years ago, in 2003... | Jan 29, 2010 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
2. Fix the issue with the limited number of TMs and TBs that can be used with the Pro version.
This is Atril's official postition regarding the issue now:
This decision was made based on what the majority of the Professional edition’s target users are expected to need.
LOL.
The problem is the users expect more than Atril expect they may expect 
Your specific needs may, indeed, be different. Even so, since Déjà Vu X allows you to combine databases by importing one into another, you should be able to create the combinations of databases that you need to be able to have what you require when working with any particular project, even with the number of associated databases limited to two.
But how many time and how many work I need to merge several TMs?
E.g., the Acquis Communautaire you can download freely and use for concordance may have easily one million units for some languages.
For my main pair, it's FR-PL is 750000, AFAIR.
Etc.
- SDL and Kilgray have.
Pavel, are you sure "- SDL and Kilgray have." is a quotation from Atril?
This is not helping. SDL and MemoQ have already introduced this feature, and so should you.
Some days ago, in a response to your mail I defended the DVX Pro assumptions because in 2003, when DVX was published, it was one of few tools able to connect more than one writable TM/termbase.
But it was in 2003.
You can't blame 'em for a decision made in 2003.
If the same decision is made in 2010, for DVX 8, I will not believe my eyes.
Now, practically all CAT tools, even low and very low priced are able to use several translation memories and termbases.
Some of them may use many SQL servers distributed on several machines (e.g. Swordfish).
So, the 2 bases limitation makes no longer sense in this segment of the market and is a pain in the arse now.
Cheers
GG
[Edited at 2010-01-29 20:24 GMT]
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 18:37
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
Javier Arrizabalaga wrote: Jabberwock wrote:
The support is barely visible - you can get excellent help, but it comes from your fellow users...
We offer free technical support on [email protected], and not only for people who has bought DVX but also for people who evaluates it.
OK, I stand corrected. I should have written "it was not visible when I was evaluating purchase of DVX". Now, as I see, Atril support is much more involved both here and in the yahoo group. However, at the time I was looking, someone from the staff posted a message on yahoo essentially saying they cannot devote their precious time to answering forum questions as they were too busy writing the software.
I am not saying that this was decisive, but it certainly left an impression that Atril resources were spread rather thinly...
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| Two months ago, it was over 30,000 words per day :) | Jan 29, 2010 |
Herbert Eppel wrote: Those complaining about Atril's pricing policy here may be interested to know that KudoZ e-mail notifications currently come with a advertisement footer that says ******************************************* Looking for a leading translation memory software tool? Discover our special offers on SDL Trados Studio 2009 and see how you could translate over 3,000 words per day. www.sdl.com/pz25fl ******************************************* Following the link takes you to a page that says "Inactive Promotion If you would like more information about this promotion please contact us." No comment
Herbert, you missed a better one
http://www.proz.com/forum/software_applications/151708-misleading_advert_34501_words_translated_in_10_hours_by_only_one_translator.html
Cheers
GG
[Edited at 2010-01-29 21:43 GMT]
| | | | | So you would actually set DVX Pro's price below... | Jan 30, 2010 |
Olaf Reibedanz wrote:
I think Atril took a good decision to lower the price of their products, but these price cuts should even go further (perhaps 500 EUR for Déjà Vu Professional and 200 EUR for Déjà Vu Standard); they should include the Workgroup version; they should be accompanied by a clear statement as to the company’s overall pricing policy; and they would be a great opportunity for revising that pricing policy.
... memoQ Pro's (620 euro, I believe)?
In particular, I am referring to the fact that Atril should start charging an annual fee for updates and support. Almost all software developing companies do charge such a fee, and there is nothing wrong with them at all. On the contrary, as a user I would be very happy paying Atril 50 or 100 EUR per year if that money is invested in further improving the product, thus enhancing my productivity and my earnings.
The trouble with charging an annual fee is that Atril has always, and rightly so in my view, stuck to the dongle licensing principle. Say they have 10000 dongles in circulation. How would you charge an annual fee for those existing users? On a voluntary basis? Wouldn't work. Introduce remote activation licensing for the new version? 10000 unhappy users. A dongle means a floating license i.e. you can use it on any computer. An SDL floating license will cost you around 5000 euros, I believe. Remote licensing activation hassles seem to be one of SDL's main problems.
In any case, memQ Pro's license is for an unlimited period. No annual fee AFAIK, although Kilgray has changed its pricing/licensing policy several times. They probably guessed right that true, full-time professional translators probably aren't too bothered about the actual price, give or take a couple of hundred euros, but would be peeved by nagging SDL-style "caution, your license will expire in 90, 60, 30 days if you don't pay the upgrade fee" reminders. They look on ROI in productivity rather than just price terms. I don't think you can really criticise Atril for not having a clear pricing policy. It has always been "free upgrades" within the same product version (DV3 up to 2003, DV(X) (7) from 2003 onwards).
And I don't really see how slashing a price from 1000 euros to 500 euros and then charging an annual fee of 50 euros can generate extra revenue unless such a move actually doubles sales. If you'd bought your licence for 500 euros in 2003 instead of 990 euros, or whatever it was then, and paid an annual fee of 50 euros, Atril would as yet, in 2010, not be any better off by that sale.
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 17:37
German to English
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In memoriam | Local pricing? | Jan 30, 2010 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
SDL may take a lot of blame for the quality of the software they sell (mostly beta versions trying to pass for the real deal), but they should be praised for their smart marketing policy - in Bulgaria Trados is sold for a fraction of the price of the same product in Western Europe.
Well I never knew that! Were I to purchase it, should I shift to an ISP in China or somewhere? What about the group buys on this portal - surely they are globally-valid prices?
Chris
| | | | Olaf Reibedanz
Colombia
Local time: 11:37
Member (2003)
English to German
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| Halving the price and doubling the number of licences sold | Jan 30, 2010 |
Hi David,
thanks for your reply!
The trouble with charging an annual fee is that Atril has always, and rightly so in my view, stuck to the dongle licensing principle. Say they have 10000 dongles in circulation. How would you charge an annual fee for those existing users?
A change from dongle to annual fee would be possible when releasing a new version of the programme.
And I don't really see how slashing a price from 1000 euros to 500 euros and then charging an annual fee of 50 euros can generate extra revenue unless such a move actually doubles sales.
That’s precisely the point: if the programme costs only half of what it cost before, then many more people will buy it! I can easily see Atril sell twice as many licences when halving the price! But admittedly, an annual support fee of 50 EUR would be too low. 100 EUR would be more reasonable figure.
Full-time professional translators probably aren't too bothered about the actual price
Well, you are not and I am not. (I have actually bought two Workgroup licences and have never had any doubts or regrets about that investment). But, unfortunately, many translators are bothered about the price. This observation is based on personal experience: I have several colleagues whom I highly recommended Déjà Vu but who ended up buying Trados or MemoQ because these programmes were cheaper.
Of course both you and I and all existing users know that in the long-term, Déjà Vu is excellent value for money, but for a potential new user this may not be apparent right from the outset. 1000 EUR is a lot of money, even if you are a professional translator, and even more so if you have only just started your translation career. It’s easier to first spend only 500 EUR, work with the programme for a year, see how it boosts your productivity, and then pay an annual support fee of 100 EUR.
Therefore, by (permanently?) lowering the cost of the Professional version to 660 EUR, Atril made an important step in the right direction.
Kind regards,
Olaf
[Edited at 2010-01-30 17:11 GMT]
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| What, in your opinion, should Atril cnange to make DejaVu X more attractive to customers? | Jan 30, 2010 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
I would really like to see Atril get things right - they deserve to be the number one tool on the market: not only the best overall tool, but the most popular one.
Right now they are trailing behind SDL, and bearing in mind how buggy and mind boggling Trados is, this is a strange fact, to say the least.
What should they change?
a) better MT integration (online & offline)
b) a tool like Autosuggest
and imho, to lower the price is a bad busoness policy as many translators will raise if it is not worth to wait a while in the hope that Atril will give his program DV X away, considering the short time period passed between the of Christmas promotion and last price lowering...
I guess that the way of confronting the economical crisis is not loweringyhr prices, but by givong more services for the same price. My 2 cents...
| | | | QUOI
Chinese to English
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| Dongle makes it easy. | Jan 31, 2010 |
I quite like Atril’s dongle approach and hope they will keep that.
I’d rather pay a higher fee upfront and receive a fixed period of support/product upgrade than having to pay a lower initial price with an on-going fee. The latter makes you feel that you actually never own the product… But that’s just me.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 18:37
Italian to English
In memoriam | What, in your opinion, should Atril change | Jan 31, 2010 |
Pablo Bouvier wrote:
a) better MT integration (online & offline)
b) a tool like Autosuggest
MT isn't of much interest to me but AutoSuggest certainly is.
After years of fiddling around with MultiTerm Extract and DVX's lexicon, I came to the conclusion that as a freelance, I simply didn't have the time to produce and edit usable results. What I do have, though, are large, sector and client-specific TMs from which to generate AutoSuggest dictionaries. I've only just started using Trados 2009SP1 but already the AutoSuggest function is proving astonishingly useful. And if Atril have come up with an improved version, as David reports, I can't wait until they wheel it out.
I guess that the way of confronting the economical crisis is not loweringyhr prices, but by givong more services for the same price. My 2 cents...
Prices will change over a product's life cycle but they need to do so in a way that makes sense to the customer. If you charge 100 on Friday and announce a new price of 50 on Monday for no apparent reason, Friday's customers are going to feel miffed.
| | | | Pavel Tsvetkov
Bulgaria
Local time: 19:37
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...
Moderator of this forum TOPIC STARTER | Dramatic changes are possible with the intoduction of a new version | Jan 31, 2010 |
Giles Watson wrote:
Prices will change over a product's life cycle but they need to do so in a way that makes sense to the customer. If you charge 100 on Friday and announce a new price of 50 on Monday for no apparent reason, Friday's customers are going to feel miffed.
Exactly my point. Of course, every little thing helps, but changing the price of the same product several times in a short period of time leaves customers feeling deceived.
Atril's pricinig policy, dongles, etc. - this can all change with the release of the new version - if deemed practical.
The idea of introducing autosuggest functionality, but without the minimum units limitation, is a great idea.
I personally do not feel the creation and usage of a lexicon helps.
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:37
French to German
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| The "aha" $ 100 question | Jan 31, 2010 |
Textklick wrote: Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
SDL may take a lot of blame for the quality of the software they sell (mostly beta versions trying to pass for the real deal), but they should be praised for their smart marketing policy - in Bulgaria Trados is sold for a fraction of the price of the same product in Western Europe. Well I never knew that! Were I to purchase it, should I shift to an ISP in China or somewhere? What about the group buys on this portal - surely they are globally-valid prices? Chris
How come that such questions are (should I add: *always*???) carefully avoided by those concerned?
[Edited at 2010-01-31 14:26 GMT]
| | | | | Dongles... faster upgrade cycle... | Jan 31, 2010 |
David Turner wrote:
The trouble with charging an annual fee is that Atril has always, and rightly so in my view, stuck to the dongle licensing principle. Say they have 10000 dongles in circulation. How would you charge an annual fee for those existing users? On a voluntary basis? Wouldn't work. Introduce remote activation licensing for the new version? 10000 unhappy users. A dongle means a floating license i.e. you can use it on any computer. [/quote]
The dongle is one of major DVX advantages.
But the dongle price should be public and shown on the Atril pricelist.
A little bit of transparancy...
When a potential user sees an price like 250 euro for Standard and, after few clicks he sees something like 330 euros (including dongle and shipping fees), it makes a really bad impression...
I don't think you can really criticise Atril for not having a clear pricing policy. It has always been "free upgrades" within the same product version (DV3 up to 2003, DV(X) (7) from 2003 onwards).
Even if it's clear, it's not enough clear to prepare a budget for 5 years ahead.
With MemoQ, it's predictable.
They adopt the common 20% initial price fee for one year upgrade and support agreement.
E.g., I have the same kind of agreement with Terminotix.
The managers love predictable expenses.
And I don't really see how slashing a price from 1000 euros to 500 euros and then charging an annual fee of 50 euros can generate extra revenue unless such a move actually doubles sales. If you'd bought your licence for 500 euros in 2003 instead of 990 euros, or whatever it was then, and paid an annual fee of 50 euros, Atril would as yet, in 2010, not be any better off by that sale.
IMO even if an initial price like 660 euros is charged and, let's say, a 330 euro upgrade fee is asked every 3 years, it makes no difference in the budget but Atril may say their latest version is at least 3 years old.
It's a good commercial argument.
You have a clear roadmap. a clear upgrade policy and some important new features and/or changes in the design.
Minor changes/upgrades in the meantime.
No more easy FUD.
Cheers
GG
[Edited at 2010-01-31 16:40 GMT]
| | | | | AutoSuggest... Lexicon... | Jan 31, 2010 |
Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
Atril's pricinig policy, dongles, etc. - this can all change with the release of the new version - if deemed practical.
I hope the dongles will not be dropped.
The pricelist, we'll see...
The idea of introducing autosuggest functionality, but without the minimum units limitation, is a great idea.
And without a hidden maximum units limitation
I never managed to run successfully AutoSuggest on TMs larger than 450000 TU, of course, with an absurd error message kinda "Not enough memory" when only 1-1.5 GB was used (2 GB were free...).
I'm almost sure Kilgray will propose something like that for some future versions.
It seems their LSC needs only some iterative postprocessing.
I personally do not feel the creation and usage of a lexicon helps.
It may help a lot.
It may be comparable with Autosuggest but you must resolve the lexicon manually.
It may speed up considerably the text which are repetitive at the subsegment level.
With good termbases and AutoAssemble, it's a monster.
It's one of features I'm really missing in MemoQ.
Cheers
GG
[Edited at 2010-01-31 16:41 GMT]
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