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一段关于中国绘画的翻译
Thread poster: avyjiang

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
高雅 Sep 11, 2011

对了,再罗嗦一句。 "高雅" 也是很好的形容意境的词, 我并没有完全否定 "雅" 的意思。

 

clearwater
China
Local time: 23:13
English to Chinese
when的习惯毛病 Sep 11, 2011

当第一次看到罗氏兄弟的商标作品的一幅画——苹果脸的幼童浮动在一片从天安门中射出的深红色、黄色和粉红色的射线时

许多人一见到when就译成“当......时”,其实,把“当”字删了,岂不是更简洁、更汉化?

当然,这同样是个长句,沉下心来的话,是完全可以分成几个短句的,至少读起来不用那么上气不接下气。

PS:挑别人的刺总是很容易的事:)


 

Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
说的很对,当字真该删 Sep 11, 2011

clearwater wrote:

当第一次看到罗氏兄弟的商标作品的一幅画——苹果脸的幼童浮动在一片从天安门中射出的深红色、黄色和粉红色的射线时

许多人一见到when就译成“当......时”,其实,把“当”字删了,岂不是更简洁、更汉化?

当然,这同样是个长句,沉下心来的话,是完全可以分成几个短句的,至少读起来不用那么上气不接下气。

PS:挑别人的刺总是很容易的事:)


删掉更好,习惯思维很可怕。


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
我太过分了 Sep 12, 2011

大家都这么说,那肯定是对的。[/irony]

Donglai:
"loftiness与雅要搭上边,还是有些牵强的"

这点我同意,为了找出这个词我翻书翻了很久。本来loftiness与雅看起来很不一样,但是我们的问题是:在文人画理论中,哪个概念与作家提出来的loftiness概念一样?我觉得只能是雅,没有更接近的,但如果同行有更好的建议,我很愿意听。问题是,必须要有依据。你个
... See more
大家都这么说,那肯定是对的。[/irony]

Donglai:
"loftiness与雅要搭上边,还是有些牵强的"

这点我同意,为了找出这个词我翻书翻了很久。本来loftiness与雅看起来很不一样,但是我们的问题是:在文人画理论中,哪个概念与作家提出来的loftiness概念一样?我觉得只能是雅,没有更接近的,但如果同行有更好的建议,我很愿意听。问题是,必须要有依据。你个人对某某英文词的感觉不是依据,没有说服力。

就参照Libin那段话中的这一句:

This alternate trajectory was dubbed “Gaudy Art,”
这一不同的路径被称为“艳俗”艺术

你个人对gaudy可能有个什么感觉,但你的感觉与这段文毫无关系:这里的"gaudy"是专门弄来代替一个中文词语。gaudy可以翻成鲜艳、显眼、五彩等等等,但这里的gaudy都不是,而是个美术界术语,即艳俗。

James:
"请大家讨论时发贴用词都请婉转一些"

No. 正是因为大家互相维护面子,翻译质量才无法提高。错误是错误。翻译过程中,有很多宜讨论的问题,很多无法确定的概念,希望大家多讨论讨论。但同时也有很多问题可以确切地说对或者不对。在遇到错误时,不说“不”也是一种缺位不负责任的行为。
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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
A little modesty never killed anyone Sep 12, 2011



http://mt.china-papers.com/2/?p=197260

The first chapter analyzes the embodiment of Su Shi's self-awareness on the theor(ie)s of literati painting. It is divided into three aspects: First, he put forward the spirit theory from subjective perspective. Second, he talked about the theory of relationship between poem and drawing for creating artistic conception. Third, he focused on Nature's engineering and pureness that were the style of literati painting, and were achieved when subjective thought acted in accord with external substance.



Perhaps you're not as knowledgable in Chinese literature and art as you thought you were. A quick search on the web produced this research paper excerpt for me right off the bat. The spirit theory refers to 意境, also known as milieu, ambience, loftiness ...


"... he put forward the spirit theory from subjective perspective." ...

Although the two phrases "from a subjective perspective" and "a perfectly balanced emotional distance" are not exactly identical in meaning, they are likely two different shades of description of the same concept, or at least the same aspect, in what the researcher termed "spirit theory".


[Edited at 2011-09-12 19:51 GMT]


 

Jacky Zhu
China
Local time: 23:13
English to Chinese
我经常省掉,审校又给我加上。 Sep 12, 2011

Libin PhD wrote:

clearwater wrote:

当第一次看到罗氏兄弟的商标作品的一幅画——苹果脸的幼童浮动在一片从天安门中射出的深红色、黄色和粉红色的射线时

许多人一见到when就译成“当......时”,其实,把“当”字删了,岂不是更简洁、更汉化?

当然,这同样是个长句,沉下心来的话,是完全可以分成几个短句的,至少读起来不用那么上气不接下气。

PS:挑别人的刺总是很容易的事:)


删掉更好,习惯思维很可怕。


这个“当”字,我经常省掉,审校又给我加上。


 

Libin PhD  Identity Verified
Chinese to English
+ ...
还是惯性思维在作怪 Sep 12, 2011

sunreader wrote:

Libin PhD wrote:

clearwater wrote:

当第一次看到罗氏兄弟的商标作品的一幅画——苹果脸的幼童浮动在一片从天安门中射出的深红色、黄色和粉红色的射线时

许多人一见到when就译成“当......时”,其实,把“当”字删了,岂不是更简洁、更汉化?

当然,这同样是个长句,沉下心来的话,是完全可以分成几个短句的,至少读起来不用那么上气不接下气。

PS:挑别人的刺总是很容易的事:)


删掉更好,习惯思维很可怕。


这个“当”字,我经常省掉,审校又给我加上。


还是惯性思维在作怪,往往是不加思索就直接加上了,需要细想一下,才能体会到不加这个“当”字不但更简洁,而且会使行文更加流畅。


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
Thanks, wherestip Sep 12, 2011

Thanks for joining the right conversation. No thanks for accusing me of things I've never said.

I never never never claimed to know that much about Chinese art. That's the point.

I said this:

"为了找出这个词我翻书翻了很久。本来loftiness与雅看起来很不一样,但是我们的问题是:在文人画理论中,哪个概念与作家提出来的loftiness概念一样?我觉得只能是雅,没有更接近的,但如果同行有更好
... See more
Thanks for joining the right conversation. No thanks for accusing me of things I've never said.

I never never never claimed to know that much about Chinese art. That's the point.

I said this:

"为了找出这个词我翻书翻了很久。本来loftiness与雅看起来很不一样,但是我们的问题是:在文人画理论中,哪个概念与作家提出来的loftiness概念一样?我觉得只能是雅,没有更接近的,但如果同行有更好的建议,我很愿意听。"

If you read what I actually said, it's this: I don't know that much about Chinese art. But if we're going to translate this word "loftiness" correctly, we need to do some research on Chinese art.

You've provided a paper which gives some insight on Chinese art, so that's a good start, thank you! That's what I'm talking about. If we go to the literature, and look at the language that real artists and art scholars use, we'll see what the answers are.

Now, shall we actually have a look at what the paper says?

"在将绘画雅化的过程中,绘画的功能被逐步改变:从政治教化功能转变为审美娱 乐的功能,从为政治服务转变为以人为本,从正统理性走向了世俗的情感化.因 此,苏轼文人画论中的自我意识是他以感性为主,理性指导感性,感性与理性互 动的产物." (end of section 2, p. 36 on the Baidu wenku copy)

Ya is a quality which involves personality and personal feeling; in which rationality guides emotional response; forming a product which is the result of the interaction between the emotional and the rational.

To be honest, this particular paper supports my argument that the definition of 雅 and the explanation in the text of "loftiness" are so close that that author *must* have been using "loftiness" to refer to 雅.

This argument is not definitive. I'm still open to other ideas, with evidence.
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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
雅化 Sep 12, 2011

Phil Hand wrote:

Now, shall we actually have a look at what the paper says?

"在将绘画雅化的过程中,绘画的功能被逐步改变:从政治教化功能转变为审美娱 乐的功能,从为政治服务转变为以人为本,从正统理性走向了世俗的情感化.因 此,苏轼文人画论中的自我意识是他以感性为主,理性指导感性,感性与理性互 动的产物." (end of section 2, p. 36 on the Baidu wenku copy)

Ya is a quality which involves personality and personal feeling; in which rationality guides emotional response; forming a product which is the result of the interaction between the emotional and the rational.

To be honest, this particular paper supports my argument that the definition of 雅 and the explanation in the text of "loftiness" are so close that that author *must* have been using "loftiness" to refer to 雅.

This argument is not definitive. I'm still open to other ideas, with evidence.


Phil,

I'd be more than happy to delve deeper into this subject with you if I could. But unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge and expertise in this area. Like I said, I'm no expert in Chinese paintings. David Shen is really the resident art expert.

I found this Chinese to English translation that translates 崇高 into "loftiness". I have no idea what the translator's background is, so I'm sure it proves nothing. However, it could still be a valid data point.



http://ascetlan.bokee.com/6353378.html

蔡居的表现性抽象画最显著的特征是“中国元素”和“原始美”。
中国元素既不仅仅在于他的绘画题材取自传统的中国画题材,山水、荷花和书法,也不仅仅是揉合了国画的笔墨、线条和气韵。更可贵的是他的作品中表现了他对中国艺术哲学的个性化理解。作品《春雨》、《残荷雨声》都巧妙地运用了印象派的色彩,但毫无疑问的是纯粹的中国式抒情,激情是含蓄收敛的,在春雨的喜悦中是淡淡的忧患意识,在残荷的萧瑟中有乐观的希盼,这样的中国式的意境就在难以琢磨的色调、云雾般的朦胧和既断又续的线条里表现出来。在他的纯抽象画《蓝色6号》、《不太久》、《宇宙之晨》表现了原始美的质朴,混沌和不可名状的崇高、雄伟。光线、虚空和永恒的运动是画作中的主题,它远离了现实世界的具象却亲近着大自然,也亲近着老庄哲学中把天地间无穷的虚空看着永恒运动着的气。虚与实、静与动有节奏的动力形式,把每个绘画元素结合成一个有机的整体,也把画面和观众联系在一起。总的来说蔡居的作品形式灿烂丰富,内函深厚饱满,融合了中西视角的长处。

What marks the expressiveness of Cai Ju's abstract paintings are the “Chinese elements” and “primitive beauty”.

The “Chinese elements” are not merely embodied in the subjects of his works taken from the traditional Chinese painting such as landscapes, lotus and calligraphy; furthermore, they are more than the simple combination of the inkling, lines and flowing vitality of the traditional Chinese painting. What is most worthy of appreciation is that his works exhibit his personalized understanding of Chinese art philosophy. In his masterpieces of Spring Rain and With Withered Lotus in Rain, he deftly employs the colors usually utilized by the impressionists; nevertheless, it is doubtlessly pure Chinese expression in which passion is veiled and restrained. What is hidden in the joy of spring rain implies the unnoticeable awareness of apprehension and what is concealed the melancholy withered lotus indicates optimistic expectation; such Chinese artistic conceptions are thus displayed by the incomprehensible hues and intermittent lines wreathed by mist. In his pure abstract painting Blue No.6, Not Long and Morning of the Universe, he well reveals the simplicity, artlessness, chaos, as well as the indescribable loftiness and grandness of primitive beauty. Light, nothingness and unceasing motion feature the subject of his painting. It goes away from the reality world, yet it gets closer with nature as well as the idea that the endlessly moving air constitutes the boundless nothingness of universe. The rhythmic forms of nothingness and existence, motionlessness and motion well intertwine each painting element into an organic and new whole and associate the visual images with viewers. On the whole, Cai Ju’s works are ample in form, pregnant in content, fully accommodating the merits of the eastern and western perspectives.



As for that paper abstract that I provided a link to, the abstract is all I have access to. It harps on things like "form and spirit","self-awareness", "introspection", "life philosophy", "carrying forward ethical spirit", "being situated above nature"... In short, it's not hard to see that the paper puts a good amount of emphasis on exploring the spiritual aspects of Su Shi's work and theories.

Whatever the Chinese equivalent is, I think this so-called "loftiness" quality is closely related to the spiritual aspect of Chinese paintings. You could be right, provided this spiritualization process is indeed termed "雅化" in the vocabulary of the ancient Chinese art circle.

One thing I am fully aware of though, even as a lay person, is "中国画重意境". I believe this is common knowledge among the Chinese populace. Like I mentioned before, the term "意境“ makes the most sense to me in the whole context of that original passage. I still strongly favor using the term "意境".



http://www.96hq.com/sccidian/23865.html

中国绘画有它别具一格的特点:重在寓神情于物象之中,对客观物象诸如人物、山水、花鸟等“遗貌取神”须靠意会,“因具体而得其抽象,因抽象而完其具体”(近代名画家陈师曾语)。它不拘泥于物象表面,而重在抒发内心的感受,即重在一个“意”字,力求“神似”以达完美境界。

...

中国画取意,西洋画写实。取意者求“神”.写实者取貌。故陈师曾概括为“西人之画,目中之画也;中国人之画,意中之画也。”西洋画以建筑空间“为间架”;中国画则以书法“为骨体”。因而西洋画重立体感、空间感、科学性和工艺性;中国画则重意境、情感和书法笔致,倾向于“借形表情”,并追求画境进人诗境。苏轼曰:“味摹诘之诗,诗中有画;观摩洁之画,画中有诗”(《书摩诘蓝田烟雨图》)。中国画的至高意境为诗境,看来古人早有定说。’‘诗是无形画。画是有形诗(北宋张舜民《画慢集》)。”品评中国画,“诗情画意”是休闲鉴赏的一个重要基点。您曾记否:唐代著名诗人兼画家王维的“明月松间照,清泉石上流”(《山居秋嗅》),“落花寂寂啼山鸟,杨柳青青渡水人”等等,该是何等的“神似”之美啊!




[Edited at 2011-09-13 01:13 GMT]


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
价格问题 Sep 12, 2011

Phil Hand wrote:

虽然一个字一毛跟免费差不了多少,但早晚客户总会意识到,找廉价翻译与上谷歌没有差,毕竟两种都是没有保障的。

这话不错,但许多客户都是不见棺材不落泪的。为了获取暴利,他们往往愿意冒险。“虽然一个字一毛跟免费差不了多少”,但中国大陆的普遍行情就是如此,因为翻译人员远远供过于求。作为一位以中译英为主的英国人,难道你不觉得你在英国的机会将会更多、拿到的价格将会远高得多吗?你在中国,将是沧海一粟;而在英国,你可就是奇货可居了。再说,如今一个英国人在北京、上海的生活费用,恐怕与在伦敦的生活费用不相上下。

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/30/city-costs-living

[Edited at 2011-09-13 01:34 GMT]


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
OK Sep 13, 2011



I mean, I still disagree. My best guess, based on everything I've looked at, including the articles you've posted, is still that 雅 is the best fit. But it's only a guess, and you've made an argument for another term. This is one of those places where I think it's fine to agree to disagree.

令我受不了的是,在没有做好该做的研究,没有去考虑语境和专业领域等背景因素的情况下,凭空论断,“我觉得应该是”怎么样。如果译者有一定的依据(包括但不限于自己的语感),能够说明自己的思路,那就正明了她或他的责任心。这样什么事情都好交流。


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
Master's Degree Thesis Sep 13, 2011

Phil Hand wrote:



I mean, I still disagree. My best guess, based on everything I've looked at, including the articles you've posted, is still that 雅 is the best fit. But it's only a guess, and you've made an argument for another term. This is one of those places where I think it's fine to agree to disagree.



Totally. Nothing says that we have to agree on everything.

Actually, I am very glad that you are here. If you stay long enough, you'll probably find that we agree on things more often than not.

It never occurred to me yesterday to plug the whole sentence you've quoted into the Google search engine and look for the original paper on Baidu. As it happens, I'm not really into the habit of doing so as probably most translators are. But this morning I did find the Baidu copy that way. It's a 62-page document. So I'll take some time and skim through it. Like I said, you could be right.


[Edited at 2011-09-13 22:26 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
苏轼的 "传神论" Sep 13, 2011

Well, I kind of skimmed through the pages of the master's thesis. What I mostly got out of it is the legacy of Su Shi's theory of "传神论" and the tremendous influence it had on Chinese painting and poetry, two very important ancient Chinese art forms. In a nutshell, the theory is about capturing the essence, or sprit of an entity portrayed, whether human, animal, object, or nature ... At least that's my own impression.


Here's a link to the paper ...

... See more
Well, I kind of skimmed through the pages of the master's thesis. What I mostly got out of it is the legacy of Su Shi's theory of "传神论" and the tremendous influence it had on Chinese painting and poetry, two very important ancient Chinese art forms. In a nutshell, the theory is about capturing the essence, or sprit of an entity portrayed, whether human, animal, object, or nature ... At least that's my own impression.


Here's a link to the paper ...

http://wenku.baidu.com/view/2459c13a580216fc700afddc.html


I'll spend some time and copy some passages here for everyone's convenience. No commentary from me will be made so we can all reach our own conclusions. Unfortunately, it's going to be a slow process, since I need to type out the Chinese text character-by-character.


[Edited at 2011-09-14 11:43 GMT]
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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
May the Google be with you Sep 13, 2011

You don't have to copy by hand. Open the Google cached version of the Wenku page, and the text comes up as copyable html.

 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
Thanks Sep 13, 2011

Phil Hand wrote:

You don't have to copy by hand. Open the Google cached version of the Wenku page, and the text comes up as copyable html.


Great, Phil. I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.

I'll still take my time though. There are some TV programs today I don't want to miss.


 
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一段关于中国绘画的翻译

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